A dilema ( of sorts )

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Allright, seeing as i can't really sleep, I think it's time I too asked for a brainstorming session regarding some personal problems ( nothing to do with the insomnia mind you ), so here it goes MoFo.

As you may or may not know, I'm gay, however, I'm not exactly "outed" per se. I've told my two youngest sisters ( there's 5 of us total ), but I've not yet told my parents or my older brother and sister. The question here is, should I ever tell my mother I'm gay? The situation is a bit complicated, my parents are catholics, my mother a devout one, she rarely misses church on Sunday. Now, I don't really care about my father knowing, I don't like the man very much. But does my mother have a right to know?

One of the reasons why I finally gathered enough guts to tell my sister ( youngest one who I'm the closest too, and that was only a year ago , I'm 24 now ), the main reason in fact, was that I couldn't bare the thought of something happening to me and her not knowing who I was, fully ( not that being gay has much to do with my character, she knew who I was and all, but didn't really know what had troubled me for the past 10 years or so ). The usual factors ( fear of rejection and so on ) prevented me from doing this sooner.

Now, it's not that I would be doing this because I need my mother's validation or approval to lead a normal life or anything, I'm perfectly happy right now, but like I said, does the woman that gave birth to me have a right to know who her son was/is?

The dilema is this, if I ever tell her, I'm pretty sure the following would happen; she would never accept it as something normal ( she's far too deep into Catholicism to change her mind about homosexuality and well, she's not an educated person, only finished elementary school, so her ability for abstract thought or thinking outside the box isn't very big ) and would spend the rest of her life praying for my salvation or something of the sorts, or she could end up blaming herself for giving birth to such an abomination of a son. I'm not sure i wanna put her through that, the woman has been through enough ( my father isn't the easiest person to live with ).

An aditional factor of her distress could be that she feels closest to me, her youngest child, because we're the most similar regarding character ,my sisters and brother have inherited my father's "difficult" character , my mother and I on the other hand are more easy going, calmer people. When I tell her that I'm never having children, she gets very upset and tells me not to say such horrible things.

Lately she's been wondering why I don't go to church anymore ( I think I don't have to tell you guys that the Catholic Church and homosexuality don't mix very well ), and on one or two occasions I came very close to telling her, but wasn't just ready yet, and who knows if I ever will be.

So what do you think? Some of you will perhapse say that a mother loves her child no matter what, and she would learn to accept me, trust me, that is not the case. Even though I don't doubt that she'll never stop loving me, the fact remains that she will never accept it as something normal. So, should I spare her the grief or....?

( sorry for the long post, it was necessary to give you the full set of circumstances )



I wipe my ass with your feelings
I get your user name now. ASS! ROFL!

I kid.

Well not really.

Ignorance is bliss. It's true. Not knowing something that can potentially hurt you is the world's greatest feeling, seriously. If she has no idea, great.

But if it's killing you inside, you got to tell her. Have your sister do it for you. It's not a man thing or something you have to do one on one. Your mother might not be the most accepting person in the world, and religious as she might be, she can change her point of view. Anything you learn you can actually unlearn.

You also have to take into consideration you're not the first person this has ever happened to. There are people before you and there will be people after you.

It's your life. The right thing to do would be tell your mother. Reasoning being that shes YOUR MOTHER! Should you, for your own sake? Just remember what you do, you can never take back.

Write her a letter. She won't be as taken back (I hope). I've found the best way to communicate with someone when you just don't truly have the guts is through a letter. You can contemplate it to exact perfectness cause you don't have to truly explain yourself with a look of disbelief or shock.

Go for the letter idea. You don't have to prove anything. Just write at the end if you want to talk, give your cell a call.
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We're soldiers. Soldiers don't go to hell. It's war. Soldiers, they kill other soldiers. We're in a situation where everybody involved knows the stakes. And if you're gonna accept those stakes... You gotta do certain things. It's business, we're soldiers. We follow codes... Orders.



I have had several close friends come out to me. Now as you might have guessed, I don't have problems with anyone being who they are. To a certain extent, the process of coming out is one that, like anything else, is wrought with landmines. It doesn't define you, but in a very real way it does.

Everyone who has any sense of self goes through periods of questioning, one of the hardest things that comes with self discovery is translating that epiphany to something understandable to others.

The closest thing I can personally relate to coming out has been my ambivalence to and then rejection of religion as a factor in my life. My mother knows that I am agnostic/atheist and we simply do not discuss it. She still loves me, of course and being atheist is a bit easier to hide than being gay. But the process of dealing with the reactions of others when the subject does come up is a difficult one. Most people just look at you like you have several pus laden ugly heads, others dismiss it as folly, or worse assume that I had some bad experience with "the church" that caused me to reject the almighty and become a soulless sinner damned to the fires of hell.

I highly doubt she would accept your "lifestyle" (I really hate that word, it relegates being gay to a choice, which it is not) but I also highly doubt she would love you any less. Its so hard when you have a secret, especially a secret that isn't a secret to you, nor should it be a secret to anyone else. It is a part of you, a natural part, like the color of your hair or the shape of your nose, it just is.

I really think she already knows, most mothers do. Confronting her with it may be earth shattering to her but it may also help open her eyes to the fact that you are not, and therefore being gay is not, strange, sick or detrimental to anyone else around you. Sometimes it just takes one example of the exception to disprove the rule. After all it IS your "burden" to carry, not hers.

I hate it when parents concentrate so much on what they did to f*** up their kids. Any parent who has to ask such a question either is clueless as to the nature of parenthood or hasn't done anything at all to their children to f*** them up. I do this on occasion, and I often deliver a swift mental kick to my ass as a result. We are not our children.

Best thing to do is take it slow, your dad may be a hindrance so tread lightly there. I do recommend coming out to her eventually, though when you do so Is wholly up to you. If those closest to you do not know about a vital aspect of your personality then they aren't really that close, are they? Make sure you let her know that you have always been this way, and you aren't going to change for her or anyone else. And that you love her and that is the reason you are coming out to her in the first place. With any luck the shock will be minimal and she will be that much more enlightened as a result.

No one is perfect, but who you are isn't a character flaw. It is just simply who you are.

Good luck and be strong.
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"You have to believe in God before you can say there are things that man was not meant to know. I don't think there's anything man wasn't meant to know. There are just some stupid things that people shouldn't do." -David Cronenberg



Lets put a smile on that block
Listen to this girl if i was you Ad. Thats some good advice Othelo.
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Pumpkins scream in the DEAD of night!



[quote]
Originally Posted by Godsend
Ignorance is bliss. It's true. Not knowing something that can potentially hurt you is the world's greatest feeling, seriously. If she has no idea, great.
That's what I'm thinking, ultimately, what good can it do? I'm 100 percent sure it would cause her nothing but hurt and anguish. True, she would get to know me a whole lot better, only thing is, she probably wouldn't like what she knows.
But if it's killing you inside, you got to tell her. Have your sister do it for you. It's not a man thing or something you have to do one on one. Your mother might not be the most accepting person in the world, and religious as she might be, she can change her point of view. Anything you learn you can actually unlearn.
It's not killing me. I was in a bad place before I told my sister, but she has since then become my biggest support and has enabled me to live a happy life ever since. You wouldn't believe the change I went through after telling her, but that's my sister, without a doubt, the person I'm closest to in this world. My mother is not my best friend, she's my mother, we've never talked about anything serious going on in my life, we don't have that kind of a relationship. She worries about what I eat and about my studying, she has little idea of anything other than that.

You also have to take into consideration you're not the first person this has ever happened to. There are people before you and there will be people after you.

It's your life. The right thing to do would be tell your mother. Reasoning being that shes YOUR MOTHER! Should you, for your own sake? Just remember what you do, you can never take back.
I know she has a right to know, and I'm leaning towards telling her. I just wish she was a stronger person, I'm not sure what it would do to her and I'm also not sure if I wanna find out.

[quote]
Originally Posted by Othelo
The closest thing I can personally relate to coming out has been my ambivalence to and then rejection of religion as a factor in my life. My mother knows that I am agnostic/atheist and we simply do not discuss it. She still loves me, of course and being atheist is a bit easier to hide than being gay. But the process of dealing with the reactions of others when the subject does come up is a difficult one. Most people just look at you like you have several pus laden ugly heads, others dismiss it as folly, or worse assume that I had some bad experience with "the church" that caused me to reject the almighty and become a soulless sinner damned to the fires of hell.
It is rather similar, because being gay and happy means rejecting the teachings of the "infallable Catholic Church", worst sin of all, but something I had to do if I was to keep my sanity. And that was a long and difficult process.
I highly doubt she would accept your "lifestyle" (I really hate that word, it relegates being gay to a choice, which it is not) but I also highly doubt she would love you any less. Its so hard when you have a secret, especially a secret that isn't a secret to you, nor should it be a secret to anyone else. It is a part of you, a natural part, like the color of your hair or the shape of your nose, it just is.
I wish everyone thought like this, sad truth is, she wouldn't consider it something natural, quite the opposite. Worse yet, she would probably think it WAS a matter of choice, which is something I cannot stand people saying. When I told my middle sister, a woman of 27 and with a college education, told me to my face that I got these "foolish ideas" (!) off the internet. We hadn't talked about it for several months, and when the subject was brought up the next time she asked "Oh, so you're serious about that? " No, I'm a child of 14 and still discovering myself, for crying out loud!

I don't know who in their right mind would willingly choose to put themselves through something like this, I don't live in San Francisco, I live in an ex-communist country, big on nationalism and chatolicism. Being gay is often equated with pedophilia, and it's probably the worst thing a child can tell her mother other than "I've just killed a small child". Plus, even the most rational of parents would have a hard time accepting their child isn't going to give them grandchildren ( sounds like a silly thing to worry about I know, but you should see her face when I tell her I'm not having kids, like I had just stabbed her in the back or something, which is somewhat scarry considering that's just a tiny bit of what she would have to deal with ).

I really think she already knows, most mothers do. Confronting her with it may be earth shattering to her but it may also help open her eyes to the fact that you are not, and therefore being gay is not, strange, sick or detrimental to anyone else around you. Sometimes it just takes one example of the exception to disprove the rule. After all it IS your "burden" to carry, not hers.
I know what you mean, that actually happened with my two sisters, from the overuse of the word "fag*ot" whenever gay people were discussed ( something my oldest sister still does regularly ), to defending gay people ferociously. That's my youngest sis though, she'd probably give her life for me, the middle one would probably use what she knows to insult me in an argument without flinching an eye lid. I'm positive she doesn't "approve", but we avoid the topic like the plague.

She may know it somewhere deep inside, if she does, she's in deep deep denial.

Best thing to do is take it slow, your dad may be a hindrance so tread lightly there. I do recommend coming out to her eventually, though when you do so Is wholly up to you. If those closest to you do not know about a vital aspect of your personality then they aren't really that close, are they?
Not very close, like I said, she's not my best friend, however, she's still my mother and I love her no matter what. I would love her even if she was to reject me and never talk to me again, but I don't want to hurt her in any way, which telling her would certainly do.
Make sure you let her know that you have always been this way, and you aren't going to change for her or anyone else. And that you love her and that is the reason you are coming out to her in the first place. With any luck the shock will be minimal and she will be that much more enlightened as a result.
Believe me, I've gone over the conversation a million times in my head, I have a bucketload of rational arguments to support my cause, explanations any rational person would have to accept, but it's all useless when i remember that she's a devout catholic, where reason doesn't help much. The Bible is the law, anything contradicting it is sinful thinking, unacceptable, endangers the soul.

No one is perfect, but who you are isn't a character flaw. It is just simply who you are.

Good luck and be strong.
Thanks for your thoughts, it's much appreciated.



Female assassin extraordinaire.
Ok, here we go ...

- it is not anyone's "right" to know who you are. it is your right however, to tell anyone you choose who you are, to share yourself with others, to be your full self with others. it is also your right to choose which parts of yourself you show and share with others, whom you will trust with all parts of yourself, whom you will trust with some parts, and whom you will trust not at all.

- unfortunately in the world, people, especially family, only want to know us conditionally. that is, they only want to know the parts of you that they can deal with and live with. in their selfishness, they are more concerned about the parts of you that upset THEM, versus loving you for who you are, whether they see something as a wart, an abomination, an anomaly ... or nothing good nor bad, just a bag of tricks that adds up to you.

To reconcile the pieces of you that upset them, they will blame and attack you and question you and challenge you.they do this no because they hate you, but because you introduced something that does not compute into their equation of you. they're upset becuase things were safe, just the way they liked them. introducing something they do not understand or agree with will generate tension, suspicion, confusion, blame, denial, doubt, toward themselvse and toward you.


- this is a fine line to walk - my very own father raised me as though who and what i am should be defined by what he outlined for me. he had great difficulty computing my response which was "i will be who i choose to be, regardless of what you think or feel, regardless of what you want, and that way of being is not *wrong* just because it isn't the way you planned for me."

we had fights like you would not believe, from age 11 on. I fought him til the bitter end, until i forced him to accept i would not be a skinny athletic smart girl, i would not date and introduce my boyfriends to him first, i would not necessarily do things in my life the way he wanted me to do them, and I would not generally BE the girl he wanted and outright said he wished I was.

He was resigned, though always disapproving, and it took him 5 years away from me while I was in college and he was living life alone, to realize he had pushed away someone he could have made a true effort to get to know.

At this point, neither he nor none of my other family members have any idea who i really am.

Why? Not because I hide it, but because they really don't want to. If they did, they would have tried, and stopped fighting me every step of the way. They don't know me because they don't want to know the real me. And that is their choice, and I let them have it. Their price to pay is I make no effort to know them, either, outside of the same superficial exchanges you describewith your mom.

We dont' go to themfor deep meaningful concerns and issues in our livse. We turn to friends or people we've selected, a surrogate family. For any person in the world we choose, bond with, and trust, and know we can trust, is family if we choose them to be.

if you find people you know you can shareyour whole self with, or more of yourself with (such as your younger sister) you are doing the right thing, and what makes you happy - taking care of yourself, finding people who are open to knowing you as you are, and welcoming you as you are, no strings attached.

- that is the greatest conflict between parent and child.they want to know you, but only as they can bear it. and we want to know them, only as we can bear it. example - who wants to know their parent is pansexual or throws orgies in the basement? no invested child does. and no invested parent wants to know that their child is smoking marijuana or not interested in getting more than average grades in school.

They MAY change. They MAY not. It IS their burden. It is NOT yours.

so, it sounds like you have no NEED to tell her. you're just feeling like it's your duty to, because she's your mother.

your mother has no rights over who you are and how you live your life. she has no right to know. it would be NICE of her to know, and of her to be accepting, but there is no guarantee she would.

so if it weighs on you, or you ever feelshe's open - tell her. be prepared for the rough reality that may follow. with truth comes reality and many ofus aren't prepared. you have to prepare yourself that you will pay a price in trouble and heartbreak by telling her. if you are more concerned with being who you are at all times, regardless of how she takes it - this is your right, but again, there's a price.

if the priceis too high, and the possible damage to great, and you have no burning need to tell her and be true yourself at all times regardless of other's feelings/needs - keep it to yourself, and one day, perhaps when she's ready, she'll turn to you and say ...

"How is it that you've never had a girlfriend, love? Is there something you're not telling me? I love you and want you to be happy ... can you tell me what I'm not seeing?"

Cross your fingers and hope ...
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Originally Posted by thmilin
- this is a fine line to walk - my very own father raised me as though who and what i am should be defined by what he outlined for me. he had great difficulty computing my response which was "i will be who i choose to be, regardless of what you think or feel, regardless of what you want, and that way of being is not *wrong* just because it isn't the way you planned for me."

we had fights like you would not believe, from age 11 on. I fought him til the bitter end, until i forced him to accept i would not be a skinny athletic smart girl, i would not date and introduce my boyfriends to him first, i would not necessarily do things in my life the way he wanted me to do them, and I would not generally BE the girl he wanted and outright said he wished I was.

He was resigned, though always disapproving, and it took him 5 years away from me while I was in college and he was living life alone, to realize he had pushed away someone he could have made a true effort to get to know.
Hmm...my father was also very demanding, but we chose the route of lesser resistance. We became "yes men", lying to him about even the stupidest of things only to avoid unneccessary drama ( the man has a temper you wouldn't believe ). I think it's somewhat of a paradox that we as children of such an authoritative figure could grow up to be such independant strong people. Perhapse it was too much psychological abuse and constant beratement ( i probably made up that word but you know what I mean ), we simply stopped caring what he or anyone else thought about us. Or perhapse it was because we all basically moved away from home at the age of 14 to go to highschool ( there were none on our island ) and have learned to take care of ourselves at a very early age.

At this point, neither he nor none of my other family members have any idea who i really am.

Why? Not because I hide it, but because they really don't want to. If they did, they would have tried, and stopped fighting me every step of the way. They don't know me because they don't want to know the real me. And that is their choice, and I let them have it. Their price to pay is I make no effort to know them, either, outside of the same superficial exchanges you describewith your mom.

We dont' go to themfor deep meaningful concerns and issues in our livse. We turn to friends or people we've selected, a surrogate family. For any person in the world we choose, bond with, and trust, and know we can trust, is family if we choose them to be.

if you find people you know you can shareyour whole self with, or more of yourself with (such as your younger sister) you are doing the right thing, and what makes you happy - taking care of yourself, finding people who are open to knowing you as you are, and welcoming you as you are, no strings attached.
Hah, seems like we've had a pretty similar life.


so, it sounds like you have no NEED to tell her. you're just feeling like it's your duty to, because she's your mother.
Well it's like this, It definitely would be a gigantic weight off my shoulders for everyone to know so I can stop telling little white lies or worrying if someone will ever find out and tell them. Another problem to consider here is the stigma of being gay or having a family member who is gay. I can't say that I'm totally indifferent to the abuse gay people have to endure in Croatia, and if the word was ever to get out in my little homophobic, catholic village on my little island, life would not be comfortable, not only for me, but for my family either.

On the other hand, I'm not too troubled by the current situation, I'm happy, the oblivious ones are happy being oblivious, I have all the support and understanding I need. I do think it's rather sad that they don't know what we go through, I know I would like to know something like this.

your mother has no rights over who you are and how you live your life. she has no right to know. it would be NICE of her to know, and of her to be accepting, but there is no guarantee she would.

so if it weighs on you, or you ever feelshe's open - tell her. be prepared for the rough reality that may follow. with truth comes reality and many ofus aren't prepared. you have to prepare yourself that you will pay a price in trouble and heartbreak by telling her. if you are more concerned with being who you are at all times, regardless of how she takes it - this is your right, but again, there's a price.
I guess I'll tell when I'm out living my own life, outing myself right now would place me in a very uncomfortable situation. I want to be able to say " Ok , now you know, feel free to keep in touch if you want to, if not, I understand, we go our separate ways".
if the priceis too high, and the possible damage to great, and you have no burning need to tell her and be true yourself at all times regardless of other's feelings/needs - keep it to yourself, and one day, perhaps when she's ready, she'll turn to you and say ...

"How is it that you've never had a girlfriend, love? Is there something you're not telling me? I love you and want you to be happy ... can you tell me what I'm not seeing?"

Cross your fingers and hope ...
Either way, I dread the day when we have "the talk", I still get fairly uncomfortable telling people whom I'm only friends with, let alone family members. I fear that if it comes to it, it will be out of anger and we may burn our bridges with the things we say....



rhymes with Goebbels
Sorry, I didn't really properly read through any of the posts in reply to yours, ad, so I could just be repeating what someone else had said.

It sounds like a very tricky situation, but honestly, I would lean toward not telling her. Only in that for myself, even with being reasonably straight, I never plan on implying anything about my sex life or habits to my parents. I find sexuality to be terribly defining.

My only real worry would be when you get into a proper relationship, I'd imagine it would be even trickier to hide that.
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Originally Posted by shirble
Sorry, I didn't really properly read through any of the posts in reply to yours, ad, so I could just be repeating what someone else had said.

It sounds like a very tricky situation, but honestly, I would lean toward not telling her. Only in that for myself, even with being reasonably straight, I never plan on implying anything about my sex life or habits to my parents. I find sexuality to be terribly defining.

My only real worry would be when you get into a proper relationship, I'd imagine it would be even trickier to hide that.
Well, our family is a very catholic one, so sex is a major taboo, which is one of the reasons why I've managed to keep it a secret for so long, we simply don't discuss those things and this is primarely a sexual issue...

If or when I do get into a serious relationship, I think I won't have a choice. But by then I hope to be living on my own and the consequences of telling will be minimal.



Originally Posted by thmilin
who wants to know their parent is pansexual or throws orgies in the basement? ...
Hey now! Tell me where you hid the camera, NOW!

But seriously, listen to her, she gives excellent advice.

Find a community of friends who know you as a whole person, if you have that you are all set.



Originally Posted by shirble
Sorry, I didn't really properly read through any of the posts in reply to yours, ad, so I could just be repeating what someone else had said.

It sounds like a very tricky situation, but honestly, I would lean toward not telling her. Only in that for myself, even with being reasonably straight, I never plan on implying anything about my sex life or habits to my parents. I find sexuality to be terribly defining.

My only real worry would be when you get into a proper relationship, I'd imagine it would be even trickier to hide that.
But it isn't his sex life that he would be exposing it is a part of his personality that is crucial to his being. Telling my mom I have sex (even though I have a child) would be well....ewwwwwww!



Originally Posted by thmilin
- unfortunately in the world, people, especially family, only want to know us conditionally. that is, they only want to know the parts of you that they can deal with and live with. in their selfishness, they are more concerned about the parts of you that upset THEM, versus loving you for who you are,
Two things:
1. Addi, my man, just be true to yourself an to your family. Family, to me, is the fondation of our lives. Those of us who are lucky enough to have close family ties, no matter how the knot is gathered, understand this. I think from how empathetic you present yourself to be, and by reading most of your posts, you are a romantic and an enabler at the same time; you are all crunched up in one ball of anger/uncertainty and love and want to share so much, yet avoiding pain to loved ones is even more important to you than anything else because of that love. I personally think hiding important things is the same as lying, and I know you do not think that that is the right thing. I agree that your Mother already knows who you are, and has accepted it, at least under the surface. I do not say these things just for somthing to say, I understand exactly the dilema you are going through, I am not gay, but I certainly kept some very important things from my parents that I should have shared with them. Revealing these things eventually did not come without rants, curses, pain and dissapointment, but in the end a loving family "loves" without condition and I hope that this is the same around the world. The word family to me is more than just blood, it is a bond and it is the foundation of who we are. If you think of your Mother as family, in my sense of the word I think you should share everything, but is definitely up to you to decide and I hope everything turns out for the best regarding this.

2. To thmilin: First off I have read many of your posts and think they are very informative and thought provoking and I respect a lot of what you have to say. I can certainly see that you truly believe what you post and that you very intelligent and articulate. This is the first time, I think, that I have seen something you have posted that has made me stand up and think "you are wrong". Certainly I do not think I know everything and I also agree that my definition of family must be different than yours. Family, to me, is not just Mom, Dad, Brother, Sister, it is a feeling, it is a bond, it is a commitment and most importantly it is unconditional love. If, as you stated, family loves conditionally then to me they are not family. Oh I do not mean on the surface, because all families argue, but deep down, where it counts, a true family comes together and holds hands when the going gets rough. Again, these are just my thoughts, and in no way do I think I am always right and sometimes I drink too much. Hiccup*****
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Female assassin extraordinaire.
first up ... adis:

I fear that if it comes to it, it will be out of anger and we may burn our bridges with the things we say....
If the bridge is rotten, sometimes we need to burn it and build it again from scratch. That, btw, is not a fast or easy thing to do - either burn it, or rebuild it.

re: similar lives ... i've unfortunately found that not all children subjugated to emotional and psychological abuse turn out independent or strong. case in point, my sister is spiraling into a whirlwind of self destruction, while I knew who and what I was very young and never let anything anyone else ever said every sway me - i am so important to myself (think ayn rand's objectivism), or, to some, so selfish, or, love myself so much, i'd never let myself unravel or be squashed in the face of someone else's bluster or abuse.

not all of us make it out ...


Originally Posted by 7thson
Two things:
1. Addi, my man, just be true to yourself an to your family. Family, to me, is the fondation of our lives. Those of us who are lucky enough to have close family ties, no matter how the knot is gathered, understand this. I think from how empathetic you present yourself to be, and by reading most of your posts, you are a romantic and an enabler at the same time; you are all crunched up in one ball of anger/uncertainty and love and want to share so much, yet avoiding pain to loved ones is even more important to you than anything else because of that love. I personally think hiding important things is the same as lying, and I know you do not think that that is the right thing. I agree that your Mother already knows who you are, and has accepted it, at least under the surface. I do not say these things just for somthing to say, I understand exactly the dilema you are going through, I am not gay, but I certainly kept some very important things from my parents that I should have shared with them. Revealing these things eventually did not come without rants, curses, pain and dissapointment, but in the end a loving family "loves" without condition and I hope that this is the same around the world. The word family to me is more than just blood, it is a bond and it is the foundation of who we are. If you think of your Mother as family, in my sense of the word I think you should share everything, but is definitely up to you to decide and I hope everything turns out for the best regarding this.

2. To thmilin: First off I have read many of your posts and think they are very informative and thought provoking and I respect a lot of what you have to say. I can certainly see that you truly believe what you post and that you very intelligent and articulate. This is the first time, I think, that I have seen something you have posted that has made me stand up and think "you are wrong". Certainly I do not think I know everything and I also agree that my definition of family must be different than yours. Family, to me, is not just Mom, Dad, Brother, Sister, it is a feeling, it is a bond, it is a commitment and most importantly it is unconditional love. If, as you stated, family loves conditionally then to me they are not family. Oh I do not mean on the surface, because all families argue, but deep down, where it counts, a true family comes together and holds hands when the going gets rough. Again, these are just my thoughts, and in no way do I think I am always right and sometimes I drink too much. Hiccup*****
7, i actually don't disagree with you. i was writing so fast to try and get my points out (you saw all the typos that i can see if it looks like i have no emotional attachment or respect for family.

i am speaking to a VERY specific case, one which i have experienced and which adi has experienced - intensely religious, claustrophobic, morally demanding, pressuring parents, one of whom is abusive to the point of not his children not daring to speak their true minds for fear of great drama and trauma.

in THIS case, his family has already shown conditional love. i am not saying families do not exist out in the world with UNconditional love and i totally agree that families SHOULD love unconditionally.

i have yet, however, to have personally experienced unconditional love of any kind from either of my parents. however i give it freely to my siblings, or try to - we're all human and may not realize we sometimes apply conditions to others.

family is indeed a bond of birth, nature, nurture, environment, household, shared beliefs, traditions, faith, etc. it is indeed a commitment, to each other, to support one another, to care about one another's feelings and needs, to be there when struggling or when happy, to provide and to share, to celebrate and to encourage.

however, there's an ideal, and there's reality. there are people who, by fate, are dealt the cards of a household, and in it, choose NOT to meet that commitment, wholeheartedly, genuinely, gratefully.

in reality, a child may find themselves with a parent who is mentally ill or an alcoholic or abusive, etc. - and that parent is incapable of providing unconditional love due to their own demons.

quick example - my own mother wails frequently that my two younger siblings are out of control and contacts ME to fix the problem because "i can't handle it any more." the thing is, she never "handled it" in the first place. you don't have children unless you intend to do right by them. she did no such thing, and is now paying the price.

i am also trusting adi's understanding of his own family. if he KNOWS deep down in his gut that he would traumatize his family, town, etc., i am not there, i do not know his life, i do not know him, i do not know his immediate surroundings, so i am going to believe him when he says he would cause great harm to his family.

i speak from experience and know that i upset my mother, also catholic, to all get-out when i chose christianity, and then later said, i'm not christian but follow god my own way. to this day she slanders, insults, accuses, belittles, pities, and berates me for not being her idea of a good human being. the irony is that she was also an abusive parent and is the closest thing to the devil i can think of - and certainly not christian at all.

so anyway ... in an ideal world, 7, what you say is true.

did your own family raise you in a warm and loving environment? did you have arguments but never experienced psychological and emotional abuse?

if that's the case, this is why you inherently feel i am wrong. you have known family, the way it should be, and there are many children the world over, including me, who'll envy you til the day they die, and seek to create their own family from those who would never harm them, and only love them freely and openly as their biological family should.



I'm affraid I have to agree with thmilin here 7th. As far as my father is concerned, that man has never done anything to deserve my respect or love, all he ever did was put food on the table. Instead of being a protector and giving me and my brother/sisters/mother security and love he has been the biggest source of distress and fear ( all of those living with an egoistic man with serious anger management issues will understand this ). He has never shown even an ounce of love towards any of us, and if I ever felt any towards him, it died a long time ago.
Much like thmiling only with a different parent I suppose, I would have given anything to have a loving and understanding father ( a random scene of bonding between a father and his son still sends shivers down my spine). But I digress.

My mother and I bonded primarely because we were/are in the same position and I feel sorry for her because unlike me, she has no choice but to stay with that man.

I know she is not a very accepting person and she would never accept who I am because of the way she handles my rejection of the catholic church. I haven't been to Sunday mass in a few years, and not a single Sunday goes by without her asking "Why don't you go to church anymore? What has happened to you all?" and then shake her head dissapprovingly. I know what she's thinking even though she never says it because she knows it would offend us greatly, she thinks we have somehow been possesed by the devil ( again, anyone living with a devout catholic will not find this funny ). This really IS sorta funny, in a fairly disturbing way, my sister found a piece of paper under her bed with some excorcist chant written on it, apparently she had tried to perfrom some kind of excorcism on her " forces of evil, I command you to get out in the name of something or other". Yes, this is my mother...a woman that runs to church to pray for me when i tell her I have an exam on a certain day, a woman that has set pictures of the Virgin Mary arround my computer and on top of my ashtray in an attempt to get me to stop smoking.

Best case scenario if I was to tell her I'm gay is she doubles her church attending in an attempt to save my soul and/or tries to get me to undergo an excorcism ( I kid you not ). Worst case scenario, she grows to hate me and what she has give birth to. I'm not sure how far unconditional love goes when you're a catholic. That's a risk I'll just have to take one day.



It's eerie the amount of similarity between both our families, adidasss. I could have written what you did just then...



You dropped into my thread with advice, I'll repay the favor.

The fact that you are gay means you must adjust your lifestyle completely. We live in societies that are catered and structured around male and female relationships.

Part of adjusting your lifestyle is in facing the inevitable. On the one hand, you can just not tell anyone, live out your life and ignorance will be bliss. On the other hand, you can openly declare yourself as being gay, people may be upset but they will know who you are. If your mother is a devout catholic then no doubt she believes in the afterlife, and when she goes, she'll know who you are. Better to have told her yourself while she's alive, while you can still show you are willing to let her in on the major life adjustment. Your mother, no matter how much you think this will hurt her, will come to accept it eventually.

My advice is to do what someone else here mentioned, have your sister tell her for you. Then when its your turn to face your mother, make sure you let her know your nervous about telling her and that you are not asking her permission or even support, but just for acceptance for the way you are.

Good luck.
__________________
Δύο άτομα. Μια μάχη. Κανένας συμβιβασμός.



Originally Posted by Equilibrium
You dropped into my thread with advice, I'll repay the favor.

The fact that you are gay means you must adjust your lifestyle completely. We live in societies that are catered and structured around male and female relationships.

Part of adjusting your lifestyle is in facing the inevitable. On the one hand, you can just not tell anyone, live out your life and ignorance will be bliss. On the other hand, you can openly declare yourself as being gay, people may be upset but they will know who you are. If your mother is a devout catholic then no doubt she believes in the afterlife, and when she goes, she'll know who you are. Better to have told her yourself while she's alive, while you can still show you are willing to let her in on the major life adjustment. Your mother, no matter how much you think this will hurt her, will come to accept it eventually.

My advice is to do what someone else here mentioned, have your sister tell her for you. Then when its your turn to face your mother, make sure you let her know your nervous about telling her and that you are not asking her permission or even support, but just for acceptance for the way you are.

Good luck.
I respectfully disagree.

Being gay is not an adjustment in lifestyle no more than "being" anything else. It is simply who you are. The rest of the world is what needs to adjust and suck up the fact that you are who you are, not you. It's like telling any racial minority that it is their DUTY to educate the rest of the world about the absolute stupidity of judgement by race.

My motto is: Be the F*** who you are! Living a lie should never ever supercede that, the damage that is done to an individual who hides himself from the world is a major tragedy. more tragic and devastating than death itself because it is a living death.

Every time you deny the self you die a little. If you live in a constant state of denial, eventually you will die completely, believe me, I know. I denied myself for so long, my hopes, fears and my loves. The women in my life have suffered most besides me for this denial. When I came out of it it was tough, but now that they, and I, know who I am my relationships both intimate and casual with women have been much more rich and beneficial for all involved.

If anyone should tell her it should absolutely be you. That act of faith and courage will be appreciated in the long run.



In re-reading some of the comments above I have come to a conclusion that I think is crucial for you to make.

You must come out, period.

Whether it be now or in the near future, it must be done.

The pain you feel every time someone makes a joke or winces at the mention of something like "Brokeback Mountain" has to be confronted.

There is absolutely, positively NOTHING wrong with you, but everyone else has put their expectations of you and their twisted ass vision of what it means to be you on you. And as a human being that should not be tolerated. It really pisses me off when people exert this sort of casual meanness towards others, it is the one thing I will come to blows over besides a threat to myself or the ones I love. I get so angry when this happens I freaking lose it.

I know firsthand how cruel people can be, how their misconceptions of you and the casual remarks about the group you belong to can incense you.

In high school I was subject to a lot of this, I was a crowd hopper who didn't fit into a neat little box, I was a freak to every group I belonged to. A peripheral being. That feeling of disdain has carried through my life and every time someone is arrogantly condescending it makes me f***** nuts!

Having someone bag on your race (whatever the hell that word means) right in front of your face and fully expecting you not to be angry because of it and on top of that telling you "oh not you, you're different," tends to leave a lasting mark.

....end of rant!



Well, my grandmother recently found that I'm gay - she's the last person on the planet Earth to know that - it happened because a cousin of mine saw my Myspace where I state that I'm gay, so of course that's something to gossip about and expose. I never wanted to tell her, even after all that's happened to me, because she's so "religious" and loves to count all of your sins and do a little math on a sin calculator to find out if X = Going To Hell.

I guess that sin calculator must have broke because she said "Oh, I don't care if he's gay, time has changed - I still love him!" She didn't do any bible talk. I haven't spoken to her personally about this matter yet, but I heard all of this from a different cousin who told me what she said.

So... I was wrong about her. She didn't drop dead, like I thought she might. I about dropped dead, though. Of shock. But I'm not saying you should expect that your mother will be the same way - it sounds like you're in a bad place to be gay.

You should find a better place to be, if you can. Know that you can tell your mother someday. Just keep remembering that it's not wrong to be gay, the people who believe it's wrong are the problem.