Atheistic Materialism Automatically Disqualifies Free Will

It isn't.

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Cobpyth's Movie Log ~ 2019

There have been studies demonstrating it and if you search the web, you can find videos and articles about it. I suppose the scientific community at large hasn't all come out and declared it proven, but they are starting to, and I imagine that once it takes more hold, there will of course be lots of protests to it, just as there is now with evolution and everything.

To me, now, it's obvious. The brain is responsible for everything. People with damaged brains can only perform in ways their damaged brains can perform. We are the same, even though we have healthy brains -- we will just perform better.

Your thoughts come to you automatically. You do not decide on what pops in your head. Similarly, you also don't decide on what to say or do. Same rule applies to them as to the other thoughts in your head that just pop in there. Suddenly thinking about your mom or a song or a movie you'd like to go see? Suddenly thinking about stopping by the grocery store and buying a steak for dinner? It's all popping in your head automatically. Everything is happening without any control being directed by you, even if you feel like you are directing the control. I can suddenly make myself start thinking about horses, but why am I thinking about horses? Why was I not at that moment thinking about cars or buses or roller skates or afros on black women? Where did all of that come from? Not from "me." From my brain. From the unconscious control my brain has over "me."

I don't think that's a fair assumption, if you read the previous page of this thread you will find some explanation towards SC view that there's no Free Will, it's simply the result of a reducionist materialism reasoning, it has nothing to do with "Bah! I'm not responsible for whatever I do, pffft" sort of attitude.

The thing is, just because a reducionistic or deterministic paradigma scratches off Free Will, it doesn't necessarily mean that Free Will doesn't actually exist.

Because what reason do we have to assume the Universe is actually governed by a reducionist logic? How do we know that the Universe is only determined by Logic as we know (conceive) it? How do we know that the Universe is just "matter"?
We don't know, because there's a lot about the Universe that is still a complete mystery and cannot be explained by any Theory or Logic...

It only makes sense to believe in what we know as a fact. But most people believe in what they want to believe... they are not satisfied with just the facts. So believing in no Free Will is just as much of a fallacious assumption as believing in Free Will, even if it's the only logical way to see it.

EDIT: Ohps, I failed to see the replies before mine, lol. Apologize if my reply is pointless now...

Even if there's more to the universe, or more to US, like a soul or whatever, the fact is that we're not really in charge of ourselves and our actions, thoughts, whatever. Anything that might be operating behind the scenes still doesn't give us free will. What if we have a soul and it's making the decisions for us? What if it's causing us to have random thoughts in our head, leading us to certain actions and everything else, etc.?

You still have no idea - AND NO CONTROL - of it doing that. A ghost in the machine is not connected to us. Is not giving us free will.

Similarly, even if the universe is designed in some super mysterious way that we don't understand fully yet, what we do know doesn't make room for free will. The logic is that free will does not exist. That's a fact, I say. It exists in the known universe. Just as if I took a gun and blew your brains out, you would be dead. You would be dead in this world. Even if you do live after death in another realm, you are dead in this world and can't come back. There's no mystery there. Some facts are just facts and there's nothing more to them.

It just means that the idea of yourself is merely a construct -- what you identify as "yourself" is essentially a program, or a feeling. Like... I don't know who you are. Let's call you Nostromo. You identify yourself as Nostromo.

Nostromo is not in charge of what Nostromo does, because there is no free will. When you do something, when you say something, when you feel a certain way about anything... I'm sure you think, "Well, that's just me. That's Nostromo. I did that." You have a personal feeling with yourself. Nostromo is you, a person responsible for whatever Nostromo does.

But really, Nostromo is just a way to identify you. Really you are just a human creature with a brain that's operating as it wants to operate. "Nostromo" isn't a free person in charge here. Nostromo is the prisoner of Nostromo's brain.

Your brain IS you. It is completely you. But, see, you're not separate from your brain. That, I think, is how most people who don't understand this/don't know this feel. I know I felt it before I knew all this. People think they are MORE than their brain. Especially if you believe in souls, but even if you don't. People think they can control what they do. Control how they are.

The only thing that happens is... you can be trained. You can be trained to be different. To change or whatever. There's no free will in being trained, but it does happen. As I've said before, we're changing all the time. The littlest things can change us. Our brains are constantly being affected by stimuli, changing us and forming us.

It's not that you can't change, but the fact that you kept changing your opinion too much wasn't your fault.

Does knowing that you have no free will mean that you're no longer responsible for your actions? NO.

The morality of our actions does not end with the possession of the "will", it ends with the consequence they have on others. If my "free will" infringes or denies the "free will" of others, then the action cannot be justified. Consequently if free will is an illusion, the body cannot abscond from the choices it makes on other bodies.

Brain scans reveal that there is a delay between conscious action and brain activity. This phenomenon has already been shown in various neuroscientific experiments. The results show that individuals respond approximately 500ms after a binary decision has been made by the brain. The impications are obvious - by the time we’re conscious (meaning fully aware) of having made a “choice”, that choice has already been made for us.

*EDIT* I just found that they are called the "Libet Experiments" conducted in the 80s, named after Benjamin Libet.

I don't believe that. The brain's conditioning can change. That's not what I've been saying.

conditioned? are you serious? this thread is about free choice and nothing to do with conditioning. your argument does not make any sense.

If it were conclusively proven that there's no free will, would that make things easier when I can't decide what I want for dinner?

This is the fallacy right there. Working logically only with the little we know doesn't ensure any truth.

Grabbing your previous paragraphs, yes it's indeed true that we cannot consciously control nor dissect the source of our actions and thoughts, but this doesn't necessarily mean there's no Free Will. There might still be Free Will in this body but I'm just not conscious of it. In fact, I could argue that the only way to have Free Will is to not be fully aware nor to have control over the unconscious brain processes that preceed an action because otherwise one's decision making would be constrained by our own intellectual logic limitations. Sounds strange doesn't it?

I think we ought to agree on a proper definition of Free Will before further debate.
Or at least agree on what the decision making process has to be unconstrained from for it to be "Free".

Well, to not be conscious of the fact that you don't have free will is simply ... to not know it! Which is how I used to be before I became convinced that free will doesn't exist.

That is not the miracle proof of free will, though. I could not be conscious of the fact that we live on a planet in outer space, and that outer space is incredibly dark and incredibly vast -- I'm sure I existed this way at a year old, maybe two years old. But not knowing the truth -- or lying to yourself -- is not to key to something being true. It doesn't change facts.

here's the thing tho, if you can't actually prove that there is no Free Will, your ideology is no better than any of the religions... that claim to be true, but aren't proven

until this is actually proven this whole 'There is No Free Will' thing is just another religion/cult

and you, Sexy Celebrity, are a follower of it. no different than a Christian is a follower of Christianity, a Muslim to Islam, a Hindu to Hinduism, etc.

This is going to be the best post in this thread. I say it should be closed. What else can be added to this?

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We are both the source of the problem and the solution, yet we do not see ourselves in this light...

80% of this thread consists of random people spewing their projectile vomit, but the essence of the thread - subject itself - still fuels the ongoing debate between philosophers and scientists to this day, and the common folk would do better if they actually dedicate more time to research into the subject.

Let's not get elitist. People are free to add their thoughts as they see fit.

Anyway I do find SC's ad nauseaming irksome but besides his style he is adding some interesting stuff. I'm probably uncommon in that I enjoy these kinds of philosophical problems, but I can see how some folks get heated and disturbed by the ideas they read. I myself care more about the structure of an argument than its content and I dislike it when I sense any browbeating.

I was thinking about Harris though earlier, and it occurred to me that it's a bit absurd how we judge and debate free will within systems we had no say in, with language and concepts we were taught, all ultimately within a universe which itself has determined the range of our freedom if not our individual choices. In a way, it makes you wonder if all of life's development could be a struggle toward increasing self-determination and if there is any absolute limit to that. Life always seems to be about finding ways to thrive and overcome and perhaps striving for ever-greater complexity, self-definition, and mastery of limits imposed by environment all could be indicative of at least a tendency toward free will, if not free will per se.

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#31 on SC's Top 100 Mofos list!!

Well, there are those who do take those implications seriously but fair enough if you don't. I'd just like to add that I think the term randomness may be somewhat misleading here, just as the original thread title was somewhat misleading. I don't think we can immediately conclude what non-determinacy allows (hence implications) for nor should we automatically equate that with absolute randomness in the sense of spontaneous non sequiturs "ruling" everything. I try to be careful not to lump reality into extremes that fit my previous conceptions since it is always entirely possible that what I'm trying to understand may require understanding on its own terms, not shoehorning into established compartments although those may be useful to some extent in reaching understanding (hopefully!)

You shove some good points down our throats as usual, SC. I guess it comes down to a personal decision whether to accept the evidence so far with finality as fact or to keep an open mind about it.

the burden of proof lies on you, bc you are the one declaring this grande universal truth that 'There is No Free Will'

saying it's true and that science 'is proving it' isn't proof. 'just go research some articles & watch some videos online.' it's vague

interestingly, SexyC may have more in common with the devout & outspoken Christan, or the devout & outspoken Muslim, or the devout & outspoken Hindu than he cares to consider

he's so sure his belief system is the best one. he can't fathom a universe where there is free will. so he is outspoken 'spreading the gospel' of his beliefs. it's no different than what the devout members of a religion/cult do to 'spread the word'

and the common thread is that all these different groups are CERTAIN their beliefs are the right ones