Vertigo (1958)- A Club Discussion

__________________
Letterboxd

This is only my second watch of Vertigo. I loved it the first time but still came away realizing I had vastly underrated this film. You could really start and stop with the visuals when talking about how extraordinary Vertigo is. I forgot how incredibly striking the movie is, especially with Hitch's use of color. The exteriors are lush and warm. The interiors are meticulously crafted, and equally inviting. For a film that is full of obsessed and untrustworthy people, Hitchcock wants to make sure we are invited in to his twisted tale. I think he succeeds marvelously. I loved spending time in San Francisco with these characters. I believe this is Hitchcock's most visually striking film.

I can't over state how perfect the casting of Stewart is in this film. That was an easy choice for Hitchcock at this point but it still needs to be said. What is so perfect about Stewart is the way he can seem so vulnerable an yet so in control all at the same time. I honestly cannot think of another actor who displays both of these things the way that Stewart does. Why that's important is we have to be on board with Scottie's journey and be willing to go where he goes. I can’t imagine a viewer who wouldn't, he invites us in and we are naturally along for the ride. When that turn comes and it is time for Scottie to become what we fear, Stewart delivers. He becomes down right creepy and it is unsettlingly fun to watch.

Novak is not asked to carry the film the way Stewart is but she has an interesting arc as well and is up to the task. The other good news on the Novak front is her eyebrows bothered me much less this time around. Her journey from the pitied to the femme fatale and back to pitied is well done. I don't find her exceptional but I do enjoy her. Who I love after Stewart is Geddes as Midge. Upon my first viewing her relationship with Stewart was the one I found most interesting. I didn't feel that way this time but I was enthralled every time she was on screen. The first scene in particular just totally wrapped me in this story right from the start. The scene that struck me this time is Midge's betrayal of Scottie by painting. I really don't think the significance of this moment hit me on my first watch. It shows Midge as weak as the rest of our cast. My first watch I really viewed her as the rock and couldn't understand Scottie's unwillingness to be with her. I still view her as the brains of the film but this moment does undercut the character just enough to propel the last third of the film.

I don't know what else to say about Vertigo except for that it is stunning. It is always nice when a movie you previously love can still reveal itself to you. I really don't think Hitchcock has a rival in pure story construction. He knows how to move the pieces on the board with such precision. There really is no doing his films justice with plot summaries and superlatives. His films are experiences and when he teams himself with Stewart we get to experience two of the very best who have ever done what they do. I have droned on again without mentioning another perfect score and on of my favorite endings ever. A masterpiece with few equals.

Where is Vertigo in your Hitch rankings Sean? I forget.

Think I had it 5th before but I think it will probably be 2nd or 3rd now.

Vertigo is my favorite Hithcock film by a pretty large margin. It won that status after I watched it for a second time.

I'm going to keep it short and cut right into the main reason why I think it works so well for me personally on a content basis. I have a highly symbolic and personal interpretation of the film's plot. I'll discuss the film's style and beauty later in this thread and I'm sure others will too.

This film perfectly tells about my own inner obsession with "the mystical". I've always had this tendency inside of me to search for something higher than the superficially realistic without ever truly finding it.
Vertigo is in the end a tale about a man believing he has found the mystical in the persona of a woman. It becomes an insane obsession that controls his entire state of being, but in the end he discovers the crookedness and he faces the ultimate disappointment.
During the final scene Kim Novak tries to convince Stewart of her worthiness one last time, but Stewart has no choice. She and her mystical truth have to fall and Stewart couldn't be more unhappy and hurt about it. He will never be able to reach the height of reality he thought he had reached while being with her. His state of being has been narrowed again. The most heartbreaking ending of all time...

------------------------------------------

Agreed. The famous kissing scene is probably the most beautiful moment in cinema history for me.

Couldn't agree more! The effectiveness of the whole experience largely depends on the performance and the character of the male lead. The fact that it's mainly a virtuous character (who we automatically judge as such in the beginning because of Stewart's reputation) who gets sucked into this web of dark obsession, makes it all the more unsettling. Stewart's fantastic performance is absolutely vital.

------------------------------------------

Here is also a fantastic video by The Nerdwriter about Hithcock's scene blocking. He uses one of the first scenes of Vertigo as the prime example. Hithcock perfectly knew how to subtly show degrees of dominance and information through the placement of his characters and the movement of his camera. A true master of his craft.

__________________
Cobpyth's Movie Log ~ 2019

I'm not a huge fan of Vertigo, but I have a hell of a lot of respect for it. Here is my review I wrote when i first watched it:

Thanks for sharing Nope. It's always funny to me to hear a lot of us talk about our film watching before Mofo compared to after. I think many of us have the same journey and I think that is because so many of us never knew true cinephiles in our daily life before coming here. It sounds like you felt the same as me, that you were the film guy. Then you come here and its like, oh, I don't know diddly. I know it's a tangent but it just struck me how familiar so many of our journeys are with film. I believe I had seen three Hitchcock before coming here. Now I have seen 21, and quite a few multiple times.

I saw zero before I came here. I'm honestly not sure I saw a film pre-1970 before here other than some Disney.

@Cobpyth Thanks for sharing that video. Pretty great breakdown, love hearing people who can breakdown a scene like that, and also makes me a bit jealous. Part of it makes me realize that there is a ton of subtext to be mined from scenes, probably some that wasn't even intentional. The building of the ships is the equivalent to the building of the narrative? Don't know if I am buying that one.

Yeah, sometimes people search for meaning where it wasn't intended, for sure. That doesn't make it less interesting to think and quarrel about, though, unless it gets too absurd (which is probably the case with the ship example).
I strongly believe in the importance of blocking a scene thoughtfully, though. It truly makes a simple dialogue scene so much richer on a subconscious and cinematic level.

Yeah, I'm with you for sure. I even was doubting true intention a bit when he was talking about Gaving being on a stage and Scottie being the spectator. Then when he points out how the story ends, he steps down, dialogue resumes. Yeah, he nailed it. Good stuff.

I hope to watch this right after I get the Mofo Awards up and running. So I'm shooting for Sunday.

My initial thoughts when I saw it were that it was a good film. A tad long, but good. Let's see if it holds up or if I appreciate it more.

__________________
"A laugh can be a very powerful thing. Why, sometimes in life, it's the only weapon we have."

Suspect's Reviews

Vertigo

Not seen this in about two or three years, it was as great as always. The perfect word to describe it i feel is haunting, it's probably the most haunting film i've seen. One thing i really love is that there's no holding back, the very first scene features the first instance of Scottie's Vertigo with him looking down while hanging from the rooftop seeing that great effect (Dolly Zoom) which looks like the ground is getting even further away followed by the cop's brutal death. The cop's death clearly has a great affect on Scottie as he explains in the next scene, as it was him failing to make the jump and the cop's good natured-ness in trying to help him that led to him slipping and falling, something Scottie can't quite forgive himself for. I just want to note that i find it funny that in my experience at least quite a few people mistakenly believe Vertigo is a fear of heights largely because of this film; yet Scottie himself explains in just the second scene that Vertigo is the dizzyness, a symptom of his Acrophobia which is a fear of heights. Cob brought up the humour Hitch instills in his films and while i think this can be very serious and moody at times this does have some pretty good humour, well shown here in his interactions with Midge during this scene and his standing on a stool (which still triggers his Acrophobia) to attempt to overcome his fear of heights. I love that scene, it's a very calm mildly silly scene then "i look up, i look down" followed by the excellent, understated musical cue and the visual of him being on the rooftop.

Again there's no messing around here, right away we are thrust into the main conflict of the film with Gavin a friend of Scottie's from college asking him to follow his wife because he thinks she might be in danger. That's something i greatly appreciate, for a pretty lengthy film just about every scene is of some importance to the story. I also find this scene pretty genius, it's a good insight into Scottie yet it can be seen as just a run of the mill furthering the story scene. Scottie is clearly reluctant; even about to reject it until Gavin interrupts to tell him "you're of no use to me then" this phrasing seems to get to Scottie who of course feels useless not being able to work because of his Acrophobia in this indicates some sense of purpose for him which is the only reason he doubles back and hears him out more. It also does a good of creating intrigue in the story and in Madeliene who we haven't even seen yet. The brief introduction of Madeliene i like alot, i often find love or even lust at first sight scenes eyerolling but i think the score, the way she is done up and the way the camera focuses on her creates a real aura around her and even if you also find those sorts of things ridiculous it's hard not to appreciate how Stewart reacts in that scene, very subtle facial expressions he gives off really creates that brief interaction. Something i adore is how much Hitch and Herrmann completely get under my skin right away, it's obvious from the get-go that there's going to be a romance and before they've even spoken it just feels so dark and wrong, mostly due to the music and Scottie's deep interest in her which is obviously not just because it's his job. It plays well with the voyeurism that is often present in Hitch's films.

The Carlotta mystery is intriguing and well done. Scottie clearly took the job reluctantly, if you agree with me he was manipulated into it with Gavin's phrasing. And in the end he's following what he believes is a run of the mill wife, he's most likely expecting it to turn out that Gavin is being paranoid and that this will be a very dull, uneventful job. Truth is other than her purposefully losing him; Madelienes day is actually pretty mundane, the one thing that is intiguing and which genuinely sucks Scottie himself into the mystery now putting it beyond just another job is that everything she does has some connection to this Carlotta person. The next following scene is fantastic. I love how it kicks off with big booming omninous music when it just looks like she is doing the same thing; sitting staring at the painting. I really love the shot of her standing next to the railing with the bridge in view, can't explain why but any time i use a picture from Vertigo it's usually that one, probably because of it's importance as well as it's picturesque qualities. Hermann's music here and Hitch's use of it is absolutely perfect and believe it or not a scene that brings a great nostalgic sense to me. As a kid i used to watch alot of Hitchcock films with my mum as he is her favourite director too (Vertigo is her favourite for the record) i couldn't remember much about the film as i watched it first when i was around 9 or 10 until i saw it again when i was older. This scene i always remembered vividly though, i always remembered it shocking me and instilling a great sense of excitement. It's how calm and kind of beautiful it is with the barely noticeable score lingering in the background, then BOOM she plunges into the bay and the music starts going insane very big and booming and intense and chaotic. Amazing scene. Another thing it does is creeps me right out, Scottie holding her chanting "Madeline" as if he knows her well, someone he has been watching from afar and feels like he's got to understand is something that really gets under my skin.



Now 45 minutes in we are finally introduced to Madeline, which always felt a bit weird to me. In a good way i mean as the first time you are watching the last scene you are or at least i was expecting more following and their introduction coming about with her confronting him since she is obviously aware of him having lost him at the hotel; which also brings up the question of did she do that figuring he'd save her because she had to be aware he was following her. It's the abrupt 2 minute period between her jumping in the bay and us hearing her speak for the first time that almost feels like an act break. The mystery surrounding Madeline is kept up well even built upon here, with her either forgetfullness or secrecy which isn't made clear at this point as well as her disappearing from his apartment. Madeline during these scenes while nice comes across completely unsettling; unhinged from reality basically in the woods scene in particular. Scottie is clearly very genuinely concerned to which gives it all a very eery feeling; this is the first instances of the film feeling haunting as i brought up earlier. His attachment feels unhealthy especially for someone like him who already has psychological problems and i was never able to shake the idea that she was acting and/or manipulating him. Despite that it is a very beautiful scene, the visuals, dialogue and both Stewarts and Novaks performances and chemistry go very well together to create a beautiful picture. I also really like how that intense, disturbing scene follows into a lighter Midge one. Really brings you down. It brings back the humour as well, i mean tell me with a straight face that you didn't crack up the first time you saw the paining of Midge haha. Love when you see Midge and the painting in the same shot.

Scottie's need to help her should be endearing but it absolutely isn't in any way, it's much more disturbing than it has any right being. How forceful he sounds during the scene discussing the church really gets to me, pretty amazing when you remember that Stewart is well known for his funny voice. The fact that she is so disturbed and quite possibly insane and he is pushing her to explore this, as well as his problems really builds this part. I love this scene, personally i'd take the bay-jumping scene over it, only marginally though and mostly because of my nostalgic connection to it. Again it's much the same with it initially being intense but still quite calm, then the score starting to boom when Scottie notices the tower the main difference being the use of the dolly-zoom. It also shows how much this means to Scottie with him fighting through his Vertigo to get to her. My only complaint in this scene would be Madeline's body as it goes past the window, it looks so fake and the scream just doesn't fit with it. It's a bit jarring and takes me out of it a bit, that's a very small thing though and well over an hour in that's amazingly the first thing i've found to complain about. The hearing scene really dwells on and highlights the powerless/useless feeling Scottie had for himself before he took this up with Madeline, you can see it greatly affect Scottie and it's interesting that this is a calm scene that comes directly after a string of intense ones yet it is clearly psychologically damaging to him in a serious way. The flashing dream sequence is outstanding, i don't really know what to say about it other than it's full of vivid imagery and amazing music.

The idea of Judy is deeply troubling, the first (second i mean my first rewatch after i was a kid) time i watched this i thought at the end it'd be reveiled that Scottie never left the mental hospital and Judy was all a dream. This actually seems to be a common theory, there's even one that the full film is imagined by Scottie while he's hanging from the rooftop at the beginning. Anyway, that's mostly from the dream-like feel i get from this part of the film with Scottie seeing Madeline everywhere and wandering about interacting with noone except eventually Judy. It's really well done, especially the musical cues. Judy of course is a completely different character; she's more agressive and less soft-spoken than Madeline. In general she has much more of a personality/character than Madeline to the point that the first time i saw this as a kid it took me a while to notice it was the same actress haha. Of course here we see the flashback revealing what happened which is brilliantly directed. What actually happened is pretty brilliant too; the story could be seen as farfetched maybe if it wasn't so well put together with how much we've dwelt on Scottie's fear of heights and psychological problems which would make it almost a certainty that he wouldn't go to the top of the tower especially after seeing her fall. The only thing you maybe have to suspend belief on is the fact that Scottie a detective would accept all of these coincedences and the fact that she looks exactly like her but that can be explained by his fragile mental state which isn't just some hand-waiving conveinent explanation, it's something that's been well established and explored constantly up to now. Just curious with the Psycho explanation talk if anyone has a problem with Judy writing the letter explaining everything? I don't i think it was necessary; it had to be explained that Judy/Madeleine wasn't actually Gavin's his wife, it's something that i don't think can be worked out at least easily from the rest of the film up to this point. I find it an inventive way of doing so and it also holds a practical story purpose with Judy/Madeleine confirming that she did have feelings for Scottie that it wasn't all an act.



A nice fairly subtle thing during the very brief dinner scene is Scottie being fixated on the blonde who walks in and Judy noticing it, it really cements how traumatized Scottie is by all of this and shows her deep regret over essentially ruining this man's life. Scottie having to take care of and protect her despite her being a very self-suficient, confident woman brings us back to one of the main themes explored here that i'm sure will come up in our discussion. Him trying to turn her into Madeleine is so disturbing on so many levels, and it plays into his need to take care of her since it feels like he's trying to turn this perfectly fine woman into the helpless, troubled person Madeleine was. Then i remember that Madeleine isn't real, she's a creation of Judy; a part she played and yet she can't stop Scottie from changing her into this person that never existed despite having full knowledge of all of this and my mind is blown. "Judy it can't matter to you" is the perfect line here, it can't and it shouldn't but it does. Her self-worth is now tied to a deeply troubled man (troubles she mostly caused), she needs his approval and love to function now and she is re-living the brief life of this completely fictional persona she herself created. Not on a superficial level either the feelings and problems this made up person had are now being transferred to her and she is powerless to stop it. I know it's only a brief couple of scenes before Scottie figures it out but that part of the film is still amazing to me and gets completely under my skin. The ending is fantastic, bitterly tragic. The thing that gets to me the most is thinking back to the Scottie in the second scene with Midge, he has Acrophobia but other than that he's a jokey, gemerally happy man. Now he's overcome his Acrophobia but he is a completely broken, messed up shell of the guy in that scene; we've basically sat and witnessed the complete destruction of this man's mind over these two hours. Perfect film.

So yeah.. sorry if this was too rambling, i normally don't do these almost scene-by-scene like here but i love this film so much and i found the idea of writing about such a rich, complex film daunting. I've barely touched on the themes, interpretations, visuals, etc so i'm looking forward to everyone's thoughts. I loved this just as much as last time and it's still along with Notorious and North By Northwest my joint favourite Hitch, as well as one of my very favourite films.

Here's what I wrote about Vertigo awhile back.



My Thoughts: When Vertigo came out it was panned by audiences and critics alike. Hitchcock blamed James Stewart for being too old to have a believable romance with Kim Novak. Hitch also blamed Kim Novak, saying she was the wrong choice. Personally I liked Kim Novak in this and everyone loves James Stewart. I never thought of him as being too old for her either.

I did like the movie. I love the way Hitch incorporated vertical themes into many of his scenes and sets, which of course supports the film's title and theme. Two examples are shown below in the photos.


What I thought failed was: the special effects for the scenes where we see the effects of vertigo. They didn't feel intense enough. Hitch needed to have a couple more brief scenes establishing just how impeded James Stewart's character was by his fear of heights. This is the main part of the film and it should have been emphasized more.


I think Hitch failed to convey a budding romance between the two leads...or maybe they just didn't have chemistry? They meet, they're in love,then they're separated and they can't live without each other. But it doesn't feel like we the audience, falls in love at the same time. Hitch is a great technical director with his use of creative studio lighting and in Vertigo I think it's Hitch's love for pizazz that gets in the way of the human element being realized.

But hey, this is still a Hitch film which makes it better than the average flick. And you can't go wrong with James Stewart in the lead, especially when Hitch makes even the smallest details look so important.



.

When I first watched this film, I simply liked it. Now, years later, and having watched it many more times, I truly love it. It's in my top ten Alfred Hitchcock favorites. I own the VHS, DVD and I now have it in my personal Amazon stream account. You know, just in case I'm not at home when I want to watch it. I must add, Jimmy Stewart reminded me of a few guys I've known in my life. Some I dated, some I just tried like hell to get the frig away from.

__________________

Don't want this thread to die. I asked this inside my Vertigo review, what do you think guys?

Just curious with the Psycho explanation talk if anyone has a problem with Judy writing the letter explaining everything?

Here's my answer in spoiilers:

I revisited this late last year and I still loved it. I was completely blown away the first time, so this watch had a hard time hitting that same level of perfection, but I still loved it really, really much. I have a Vertigo poster in my movie room, so I'm glad I still loved it.

I gave it a fantastic film.

__________________
/watching movies for mark f/
MovieMeditation's Cinema Reviews // Film Diary 2015 // Letterboxd Profile // MovieMeditation's Top 50 Horror

It didn't strike me the samr as the Psycho scene, but now that you mention it. Why do we let some movies get away with things we call others out on? Must have felt more natural to me in the flow of the story. It won't next time. Thanks Camo.

Well i don't agree that it's a problem like the over-explanation scene in Psycho i.

Fair enough tho.

End off.

__________________
It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live. — Albus Dumbledore