God Returns to MoFo! ~ Why You Should Believe in God

It was an analogy.

I'm not arguing atheism so it's not a position you can attack. You can confront the specific arguments I've made, but trying to shove it all aside and present a new position for me is the definition of a strawman.

You're over-complicating the issue by asserting that influences, both personal and impersonal, remove control.

If you're addicted to alcohol, drinking it is still an act of will. Free will can be abused.

If you insist otherwise then we are talking about two separate things.

Just working with whatchu give me.

That assumes the conclusion.

There are arguments to be made about control over your faculties while intoxicated and even while suffering from symptoms of addiction, but as long as you hold people accountable for getting there and staying there, then your argument accomplishes nothing.

Okay so they have no free will, but we're treating them like they do, but they don't, but they do, but they don't, but they do.

You have to omit the argument or redefine the concept entirely.

Okay, this is the kind of Devil's Advocate that I can't stand. Set me straight and tell me what you believe. I'm guessing that you're an atheist because of the way you ridicule religion, and you don't seem to believe that God exists. But if half the stuff you say is just BS, then you can't blame other people for mistakingly assuming the wrong thing when it's what you presented, and you certainly can't call it a straw man. Don't harp on other people's assumptions as if you don't make assumptions yourself. Case in point, you assumed my motives "trying to shove it all aside..." So please, a little mutual respect, cuz I'm just not going to continue this back and forth forever to no meaningful outcome. This tangent is derailing the conversation. That also gets back to what I said earlier about how SC didn't want to get into it with you because it's pointless because you just derail the discussion with petty things like this. (Sorry if that came off a bit harsh, I am kind of a little bit ticked off... sorry)

Case in point.

Case in point.


Just when I think conversing with you is making progress, you drop the ball again as usual. Oh... but I'm assuming your behavior pattern...

*sigh*

You've totally lost me. That's like me giving an ice cream to a kid because I know he loves ice cream and then saying, "He had to choose to accept the ice cream of his own free will." I don't have any problem with God making the right choice for me because I'm an idiot who keeps on making wrong choices constantly and God keeps speaking into my mind and sending people my way to speak to me to inspire me and bring me back to him.

When did I choose to believe that God exists? As far back as I can remember, I've heard God's voice and felt his pressence and known that he existed. That's like saying I have to choose to believe by my own free will that I exist, or that I'm standing on the ground. I can see that I am so I know that I am, there's no choice involved in the matter. I was taught math so I learned that 1+1=2. I wasn't presented the free choice to either accept it or reject it. It was explained to me, I understood it, and I accepted it automatically.

Where does this desire to have free will come from? Why do you need it? Who cares? Surrender control of your life to God, let him take the reigns and make the right choices for you. Life is so much easier that way. I don't have to worry, did I make the right choice? I can relax and trust God that my life is in his hands and that my salvation is certain. I can't even possibly muck it up because he's in control and will always bring me back to him. All I need to do is have faith in him and trust him and do his will and my life is more exciting than I ever imagined it would be.

If you want it come and take it

I lost you? The kid can choose to put the ice cream in the trash to spite me. I can choose to say 1+1=3 my whole life and deny the truth of that equation. Knowing God exists and admitting your faults and accepting his grace are two different things. God indeed wants me to surrender to his will and allow him to take control, and I try to do that everyday, of my own free will. Which he has also given to me as a gift. I don't understand the beauty of the gift of grace without free will.

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Well, my analogy relies on my knowing that the kid will want the ice cream. We're talking about God giving us something and knowing what choices we will make because he knows everything.

You try to surrender to God every day by your will. Just because you have a will, doesn't mean it's free. Maybe that's where you're confusion lies. You have a will and can make choices, but there are more powerful supernatural forces that can control you. Remember when God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the people of Israel go?

Right, we are getting closer to being on the same page. I never said God's will isn't greater than mine. It is and he is free to impose it whenever he desires. The beauty is that he doesn't despite my desire that he would and free me from myself. However I must be free to make my own choices to understand the beauty of his gifts. That is why we have evil in the world. That is not God's will, but he allows it. Jesus on the cross said not my will but yours be done. Those words lose all meaning without him making that choice for himself.

Well, it's starting to sound more like your own personal belief which is based on a fundamental misunderstanding (I think, obviously you won't agree). I'm only actually interested in the official theological terms. I'm not really interested in engaging your personal definition. The main problem I have with what you're saying is that you're starting with your own logic and interpreting Scripture through that lens when it should be the other way around.

A choice that we make on our own apart from God is a "work." It's a human effort on our part. And the Bible clearly says that we're saved by Grace and not by works lest any man should boast. You could boast that you made the right choice by your own free will to believe in God. That's what I take issue with. You're basically taking credit for something God did and not giving him the full credit that he deserves for saving you.

Not having free will makes sense to me because I struggle with doing things that I don't want to do, and not doing things that I do want to do. If my will is free then why do I feel the bondage of sin?

You accuse me of interpreting through my personal lens and then say believing in no free will rocks because you don't trust your choices. Why does evil exist if not for free will?

But I have come to that understanding because I've subjected myself to Scripture, and because of the actual Free Will vs Grace debate among scholars, Arminianism vs Calvinism. You're overruling explicit Scripture with your personal opinions. And you're claiming the title of the Arminian doctrine while not actually adhering to most of what it teaches.

Evil is just the opposite of good. There is a full spectrum. I don't know what that has to do with free will.

People in favor of Free Will love to say that not having free will means we're just robots. I think that's interesting, and not far from the truth. Our brain is like a biological computer that God programmed and gave sentience. Our bodies are like biological machines. I've often felt like my body was some kind of suit I was wearing, or vehicle I was piloting.

Sometimes I do things, and I have no idea why I did them.

I'm interested to hear what both of you, SC and Seanc, think about Total Depravity, Original Sin, and Predestination.

No. You're changing the subject. You want me to present a different argument you have an answer for. That's not how debate works.

I can because you shouldn't be assuming anything.

I've presented my argument, so argue it.

That's a cop-out. I've identified a fallacy in your argument so defend it instead of changing the topic or evading the question.

I said you're assuming the conclusion. How do you resolve that?

Alright Omnizoa, I'm going to bow out now.

Zotis, on the first page of the thread you said, "If you have any idea what you believe, then it shouldn't be difficult for you to put into simple terms."

I agree, and I also believe a similar principal applies to argument. If you have a conviction, it should be able to endure scrutiny.

Everything I've said is a rational question that could come from a theist, atheist, or other third party merely trying to understand the justifications for your beliefs.

You seem to be treating what you call "devil's advocate" almost like trolling, as if I need to take a side and have something invested or at stake in the topic in order to be recognized and then generalized.

All I've done is present a counterargument. If you can defend it, do so. If you can't then either correct the argument or concede the point and present a different one.

You once said that improving yourself was important to you. Whether I have a worldview you can attack or not, it's in your best interest to engage these criticisms because trial and error is the simplest way to refine and present stronger arguments in the future.


BUT, if you'd rather just call me BS, that works too. I don't have any interest in a topic closed to discussion.

I did feel like we were having a decent discussion for a while. But the last couple responses made me feel like everything I said fell on deaf ears. I don't want to debate endlessly, and I don't want to debate about just anything. I like focusing on important issues and making progress in the discussion, but I think you like finding discrepencies in minor points and going off on tangents. Maybe you don't think you do, but that's how you make me feel. If I give an illustration to make a point you find a fault in my illustration and make no mention of the point I was trying to get at. It's like you don't really absorb the conversation.

Another thing that bothers me is that you seem to loose track of the conversation and forget what you previously said. Sometimes when I refer to things you previously said you deny it, and when I quote it you still don't address it or return to what we were talking about now that I've authenticated it. Debating with you feels like a pointless exercise in futility.

I can totally understand that concern. However I would suggest you share a bit of the credit you asked of me; if your beliefs hinge on details such as this, then they're important. And if they're important they're worth discussing.

I believe you've brought up your aversion to my multi-quoting. The purpose of dissecting arguments into pieces is to address them individually and ensure that each bit is an impervious statement and/or a solid argument in and of itself.

If I ask questions about the details of something greater you said and you can adequately defend or justify those points then I can accept the general argument at large. The larger argument is fallible if it's individual parts are vulnerable to counterarguments.

Are you referring to the claim that I'm an atheist? You won't find any post of mine that confirms your suspicion and whether it's true or not is beside the point which I've been trying to get across: You may feel more comfortable making big picture arguments against atheism, however that wasn't and isn't my position. My current position is: that there may be an undue value placed on answering certain questions about the universe, it's origins, and our roles in it.

The main line of argument so far has been thus:

Your original analogy posited myself and numerous other individuals waking up and discovering, identically, that we were trapped in a room. You encouraged the search for the answers to the mystery for the sake of self-preservation, which I haven't disagreed with.

What I question is why the answer I should be content with is specifically, "You just have to believe in the truth, turn away from evil and do good, and love and obey God because he made you."

You've suggested that this is the sort of thing my fellow roommates would come up with and suggest AND I SHOULD BE RECEPTIVE TO. This was part of the lead-up to your point here, yes?:

Who's to say someone in that room doesn't come up with a different equally convincing explanation? If there's only the one answer that you gave then you're assuming the conclusion.

How do you resolve this?

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"Well, at least your intentions behind the UTTERLY DEVASTATING FAULTS IN YOUR LOGIC are good." - Captain Steel

Would you say, then, that the universe is inherently hostile toward life?