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The subject says it all. What do you think of abortion? Tell me why you do/do not support it. And please, no "it's her body" or "it's a woman's right to choose" nonsense. Those are slogans, not arguments. Let's stick to reasonable discourse and logical arguments whenever possible. Slogans serve no purpose in this discussion.
Abortion; Why?
I don't believe that it being her body is a slogan, it's a fact. I have no right to impose my point of view on any woman. Pro choice all the way baby! But let me guess, you are anti abortion, right?
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Hmm, a few things to consider:
- It is NOT a fact. The entire argument of abortion, really, is that the child is its own body. Just because something is INSIDE your body, it doesn't make it PART of your body. There is no basis whatsoever to insist that it is FACTUALLY her body.
- If it's not a fact, it's just an opinion. If it's bleated again and again, it's a slogan. "It's her body" tells us nothing new. It is not an ARGUMENT, because all it's saying is "I think it's okay." It does not elaborate on why or deal with any arguments to the contrary. Hence, it is a glorified slogan and nothing more.
- Yep, anti-abortion. And if you want to know why, just ask.
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Originally posted by Yoda
[*]It is NOT a fact. The entire argument of abortion, really, is that the child is its own body. Just because something is INSIDE your body, it doesn't make it PART of your body. There is no basis whatsoever to insist that it is FACTUALLY her body
[*]It is NOT a fact. The entire argument of abortion, really, is that the child is its own body. Just because something is INSIDE your body, it doesn't make it PART of your body. There is no basis whatsoever to insist that it is FACTUALLY her body
What other issue IS there?
It's really quite simple, man: I say the child is its own body. You say its HER body. That's the disagreement. That's basically why you support it, and I do not. I agree that I cannot tell her what she can do with her own body. I just don't think a baby growing inside her IS her own body. That's my point. That's what I mean when I say that THAT is the key issue.
FYI:
1 - A child's heart begins beating at 3 weeks.
2 - Brain activity begins at 8 weeks.
3 - Around halfway through the pregnancy, the entire body is formed on a one and a half inch scale. At this point, it is essentially a tiny replica of a grown human body.
Abortion is legal after all three events have occurred. So it's her body, even though it has its own seperate brainwaves, its own beating heart, and its own hands and organs? Eh?
It's really quite simple, man: I say the child is its own body. You say its HER body. That's the disagreement. That's basically why you support it, and I do not. I agree that I cannot tell her what she can do with her own body. I just don't think a baby growing inside her IS her own body. That's my point. That's what I mean when I say that THAT is the key issue.
FYI:
1 - A child's heart begins beating at 3 weeks.
2 - Brain activity begins at 8 weeks.
3 - Around halfway through the pregnancy, the entire body is formed on a one and a half inch scale. At this point, it is essentially a tiny replica of a grown human body.
Abortion is legal after all three events have occurred. So it's her body, even though it has its own seperate brainwaves, its own beating heart, and its own hands and organs? Eh?
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My main reasoning for being pro-choice is that it's none of my business. I can't get pregnant, so what right do I have to impose my will? I understand your veiwpoint on the "life within", I really do.
I said it's your argument, because a Woman that wants an abortion is forced to argue about something that she doesn't want to. It's not her argument, she's forced to respond because someone else believes of their absolute certainty that it is wrong.
I am also very concerned about the staggering population problems our planet and species is suffering with. If all the unwanted children are not born, as harsh as it is, so be it. It only can only help that problem. I am a realtist, not a religious man. If I were, I'm sure I would feel differently.
I said it's your argument, because a Woman that wants an abortion is forced to argue about something that she doesn't want to. It's not her argument, she's forced to respond because someone else believes of their absolute certainty that it is wrong.
I am also very concerned about the staggering population problems our planet and species is suffering with. If all the unwanted children are not born, as harsh as it is, so be it. It only can only help that problem. I am a realtist, not a religious man. If I were, I'm sure I would feel differently.
Run awayyyyyyy! Yoda's out lookin' for a fight!!! Why else would he go out of his way to post such a loaded topic? He's got about 100 arguments loaded and aimed at anyone who dares post here with a differing opinion! Dude, you know I'm kidding, but at the same time, I am not getting into this bear-trap.
Why else would he go out of his way to post such a loaded topic? He's got about 100 arguments loaded and aimed at anyone who dares post here with a differing opinion! Dude, you know I'm kidding, but at the same time, I am not getting into this bear-trap.
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Originally posted by Yoda
Hmm, a few things to consider:
Hmm, a few things to consider:
- It is NOT a fact. The entire argument of abortion, really, is that the child is its own body. Just because something is INSIDE your body, it doesn't make it PART of your body. There is no basis whatsoever to insist that it is FACTUALLY her body.
- If it's not a fact, it's just an opinion. If it's bleated again and again, it's a slogan. "It's her body" tells us nothing new. It is not an ARGUMENT, because all it's saying is "I think it's okay." It does not elaborate on why or deal with any arguments to the contrary. Hence, it is a glorified slogan and nothing more.
- Yep, anti-abortion. And if you want to know why, just ask.
Do you remember being born? Was it painful for you? I think my first memory in life is from I was 2-3 years old. Not 2-3 weeks since the egg I came from started to develop into me. Life or not, the feetus never comprehends what happens to it, no matter how tragic the procedure is.
I think an abortion is one of the hardest things a woman may have to face. It IS her choice (it's not a slogan, you dope) BUT the man owes her to give her his opinion. Whatever she chooses to do, he will have to support her to 100%.
Yoda, for you the issue seems to be, is the feetus a human being or not? It's not important. Even if it was (which it's not) there are other factors that are more important. The future, safety and well-being of the mother and, most importantly, the newborn child. I don't see why a 16-year old girl should ruin her and her child's lives because some rightwing, fundamentally christian men think it was "an act of God's will" or something. An abortion is tragic, but is it more tragic than a five year old starving to death? A seven year old dying from AIDS? A twelve year old overdosing on heroine? A sixteen year old being shot to death? Or a twenty year old being sentenced to death by a state that refuses to allow abortions?? Maybe it would have been better if the mom just died from bloodloss while having an illegal abortion performed on her.
There is always a choice, and the choice is always the woman's. It's one thing to consider abortion an immoral thing to do for yourself, but don't force that view on other people.
Yoda, two questions for you:
Are there no situations at all where you think an abortion would be acceptable?
What's your opinion on death penalty?
Oh, right. I'm pro-choice....
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I, too, am pro-choice, but, like lots of other solutions, having abortion as an option has become an easy way out for irresponsible people.
I believe in abortion if the mother's life is in danger. I do not believe in abortion for yuppies who just aren't ready to fit a baby into their schedule because it's "not the right time." I know people like that--one couple in particular have had two abortions. Two. What, you didn't learn anything the first time?
But, when people are throwing their newborns in trashcans to get rid of the "problem," I say they should get an abortion before it comes to that point. Adoption is an option, sure, but for people like that it's highly unlikely that it's a consideration. So, go to a doctor and have the operation. And make godd*amn sure that you're protected the next time you have sex.
Sorry, my little rant. But lthere isn't much that pisses me off more than those who can't deal with the consequences of their actions in at least a semi-responsible way.
I believe in abortion if the mother's life is in danger. I do not believe in abortion for yuppies who just aren't ready to fit a baby into their schedule because it's "not the right time." I know people like that--one couple in particular have had two abortions. Two. What, you didn't learn anything the first time?
But, when people are throwing their newborns in trashcans to get rid of the "problem," I say they should get an abortion before it comes to that point. Adoption is an option, sure, but for people like that it's highly unlikely that it's a consideration. So, go to a doctor and have the operation. And make godd*amn sure that you're protected the next time you have sex.
Sorry, my little rant. But lthere isn't much that pisses me off more than those who can't deal with the consequences of their actions in at least a semi-responsible way.
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The Abotion Discussion
Discussed once by Matthew Clayfield and Chris Bowyer
Discussed once by Matthew Clayfield and Chris Bowyer
Chris: Welcome back
Chris: I finished listening to it
The Silver Bullet: And?
The Silver Bullet: 'Taint pro-life.
Chris: It'll creep you out a bit if you're not already familiar with the horrors of abortion
Chris: IMO
The Silver Bullet: I'm up with abortion.
Chris: Whatcha think of it?
The Silver Bullet: Didn't download it. I'll do it at school.
The Silver Bullet: Connection's just too slow here.
Chris: No, I mean, of abortion
The Silver Bullet: Oh.
The Silver Bullet: Nyeh. Let people do what they want to do.
The Silver Bullet: I realise the whole life thing.
Chris: Well, yeah, let people do what they wanna do...unless it harms other people
The Silver Bullet: But we kill animals everyday. Where's the complaining there.
The Silver Bullet: Hang on.
Chris: You think killing an animal is the same thing?
The Silver Bullet: Let me write.
Chris: LOL
Chris: Gotcha
The Silver Bullet: This is the first time I've really contemplated this stuff. Can't be bothered contemplating it. Human life isn't something I care much about.
The Silver Bullet: So hang on.
The Silver Bullet: Okay. The argument is that fetus' are humans. But the way I see it, they haven't had time to develope personality or intelligence of any sort. It doesn't know any better. Your not really denying a fetus of anything. We kill animals, whom we assume don't know **** about ****, because it aids our livlihood as people. Killing off fetus' whom we assume, I guess, don't know **** about **** aids some people's mental states.
The Silver Bullet: People who have abortions often get ****ed afterwards, so be it.
The Silver Bullet: It doesn't bother me. It's not harming other people because it's not technically a person. It isn't, not really. It *is* a life, yes, yes it is. A waste of *life* perhaps, but not of a person.
Chris: So, if a person falls into a coma and is a vegetable, and the family doesn't want to be bothered with them, they should be allowed to kill them?
The Silver Bullet: No. I would think that's a little different.
Chris: So, you don't view human life as sacred?
The Silver Bullet: Firstly, I think you would find there's not *that* many groups of ****ed people who couldn't be bothered with a ****ed up brother or whatever.
The Silver Bullet: There are some, sure.
The Silver Bullet: But what heartless ****s, right?
Chris: phone
Chris: Sorry, back
Chris: It rings a lot in the morning
Chris: Well, it's not about how many there are. This is all hypothetical.
The Silver Bullet: The difference is, a fetus is a human life, sure, but it's not a developed human life. Before you go nuts, I don't mean a baby is not a developed human life. Even a baby has personality. Even a person in a coma/vegetable state once had a personality.
The Silver Bullet: You may say someone is denying a fetus the right to personality.
Chris: Ok, so at what moment does a fetus develop a personality? How much of the brain needs to be developed?
The Silver Bullet: But ****, we deny black people and Asians and ourselves a right to a personality.
Chris: No we don't.
The Silver Bullet: Yeah, we do.
Chris: How?
The Silver Bullet: Society is an organism. I'm not going to get into it. I'll sound like my narrator.
Chris: Yeah, probably But it doesn't matter anyway...the issue is abortion and abortion alone
Chris: Some other ****ed up policy outside of it is not justification
Chris: So here's what I'm asking: is human life sacred, or not? Do we need to be very careful to protect it, or not?
The Silver Bullet: Humanity is sacred.
Not so much human life, but humanity.
Chris: Because, ya know, no one knows when a "personality" is formed. There's no medical, technical signal
The Silver Bullet: The question is, at what point does a fetus get humanity?
Chris: So my logic is: if we don't know WHEN, why risk it?
The Silver Bullet: You might say the moment a baby breaths air, that's humanity. But I disagree. You may say at conception, I disagree. The first thought, the first purely pure actual thought of a fetus? Yes. That's my humanity. The moment something is thinking, sure, why not then? How do you mark that point? Who ****ing knows?
Chris: Exactly!
The Silver Bullet: Let's find out, draw a line.
Chris: We can't find out
Chris: It's not like that. It varies
The Silver Bullet: We will one die.
The Silver Bullet: Science is too rampant.
The Silver Bullet: It doesn't vary too much.
Chris: If we don't know when that thought occurs, I say, why should we risk it? If we're wrong, then that's over 1 million people dead each year.
Chris: It varies enough! This is not something to be taken lightly or casually
The Silver Bullet: People in waiting.
Chris: People in waiting are still people
The Silver Bullet: No. They're people in waiting.
Chris: They WILL grow to be humans, unless you KILL the life they have
The Silver Bullet: This is the most Christiany you I've ever talked with.
Chris: Abortion and Christianity are not related
Chris: We haven't mentioned God once
The Silver Bullet: You seem to be getting more pent up over this than I. That's new.
The Silver Bullet: You know what I mean.
The Silver Bullet: God aside.
Chris: I'm not pent up...just adamant
Chris: Very adamant.
Chris: It's apathy that has so many people in favor of abortion...mark my words on that
Chris: They'd rather not even think about it
The Silver Bullet: No, this is the first time I've put my thoughts down, but it's not something that I haven't thought about.
Chris: Just ignore it and maybe it'll go away. That sort of thing. It's the shunning of responsibility for a lot of people...just like getting an abortion is. You had a kid...deal with it.
The Silver Bullet: You enjoy speaking for wide groups of people, no?
Chris: Nope
The Silver Bullet: Good.
Chris: These are my opinions
Chris: But do you really think I'm all that far off?
The Silver Bullet: I've never talked about it with other people, really. I know I'm for it because the way I see it, you want to stop deaths, focus on the people who are already out of wombs and have created lives around them. That might seem harsh and I'm not disputing that unborn children have the potential to do so. But I'm getting off track...
The Silver Bullet: ...just because I haven't spoken my thoughts doesn't mean I haven't thought about it. Therefore my theories aren't based on apathy, I have thought about it and I've weighed up all the thoughts in my mind.
Chris: I see your point...but that's really not the issue. I think it's quite simple: if you think human life is scared, we need to err on the side of caution.
Chris: I'm not saying YOU are apathetic
The Silver Bullet: Debate is good, but it's not apathy and a ignorance that has put me in favor of it.
The Silver Bullet: Yes but Chris.
Chris: I'm saying most people are. And by God, it's true...especially in the USA
The Silver Bullet: Stop writing a moment.
The Silver Bullet: My glory a second, please:
The Silver Bullet: Chris, I'm not apathetic. You agree?
Chris: Yes, you don't seem apathetic
The Silver Bullet: Well, you know what I mean. I say I'm not, you don't think I am, that'll do there.
The Silver Bullet: Now, now, hang on:
Chris: Right
Chris: Relax
Chris: It's like you're afraid I'm gonna burst and just start spouting off for hours
The Silver Bullet: Chris, answer me this:
How many absoloutes are there in life? There can't be none, because that is an abosloute, right?
Using your logic:
If I'm one person who hasn't spoken about but has based my favor without apathy, for all we know...
There are countless numbers of:
i. people like myself
ii. pins in my mouth
iii. absoloutes in life
The Silver Bullet:
Chris: Readin'
Chris: I don't know how many absolutes there are. At least one. That's all we know for sure.
The Silver Bullet: Now, you trap me with my logic, we'll call it checkmate. I had to do it.
The Silver Bullet:
Chris: Checkmate? Are you kidding me?
The Silver Bullet: I meant you checking me, retard.
Chris: Yes, "for all we know" could be used a billion ways. For all we know, everyone we've never met might be 10 feet tall
Chris: LOL
Chris: But when you talk to dozens of people on a subject, and see a universal consistency between basically all of them, naturally you make an assumption that, unless you've run into a LOT of coincidences, these people speak for most others. Just like a survey
The Silver Bullet: You could have easily used my logic of, "I have one pin in my mouth. You don't know this for sure, I could have hundreds, but the truth is and that doesn't that this away, there is only one."
The Silver Bullet: Basically it comes down to this:
The Silver Bullet: For me:
The Silver Bullet: We have bigger things to worry about than arbortion, if we want to worry about unnessacary deaths/murders/etc. I'm not saying put abortion out of sight and out of mind, I'm just saying. Life is life is life, be it fetus, human, cow.
The Silver Bullet: We all have what it common:
We're all out there for our own survival. We're animals, it's what we do. Some animals go nuts, so be it, others kill their offspring, so be it.
Chris: Ah, but you see, that depends, too. If we conclude that abortion is NOT murder, then yes, we have bigger things to worry about. If it IS, then what could be much bigger than a million legalized murders a year?
Chris: See what I mean?
The Silver Bullet: The problem with humanity:
We have moral codes.
Chris: So be it? No no no...we fight the wrongs. We don't chalk it up to instinct and accept it
Chris: "We're all animals. Some of us will lead the Nazis in genocide. So be it"?
The Silver Bullet: A tiger living in Sumatra has a litter of cubs. There are too many for it to feed and take care of it. It can't provide. Off with the little one's head.
It's nature.
Woman can't provide for a child, can't stand putting it up for adoption, has an abortion.
Murder?!
The Silver Bullet: I've made up my mind.
Chris: YES. We don't hold ourselves to the standards of animals, man
The Silver Bullet: Just then.
The Silver Bullet: It depends on the situation.
The Silver Bullet: If someone is having an abortion because they don't want the baby, that's selfish bull****.
Chris: Yes...animals do not revere life. We do. That's a GOOD thing
Chris: Yes, it is...and it's always the BULK of abortions
The Silver Bullet: Bulk.
The Silver Bullet: You can cut the numbers down it's not going to change the fact it still happens, where do you stand there?
Chris: See, this "it's nature" stuff is a real cop-out. Nature does a lot of God-awful things.
Chris: Cut what numbers down?
The Silver Bullet: You're saying what, we're above nature?
Chris: I'm saying just because animals do it, or just because we feel the impulse to do it, doesn't make it okay.
The Silver Bullet: Because why?
Chris: Besides: what do you define as "nature" anyway? Isn't it just instinct, primarily?
The Silver Bullet: By the standards of whom does impulse and nature not make something okay?
Chris: Good God, hopefully YOU
Chris: Ever had the impulse to punch someone for no good reason, Matt?
The Silver Bullet: Yes. Often I make it a verbal attack though. It's more me.
Chris: This entire argument is contingent on the fact that you actually believe that some things are wrong, of course
The Silver Bullet: "Just a prisoner of society, society, society...."
Chris: If you don't, it's pointless...
The Silver Bullet: Nothing in the world is wrong. There are things that are dirty, grotesque, sickening, troublesome. But nothing is quote/unquote wrong. Right and wrong is a human concept which we have grown up with, hence it's become an insctinct over-rider. Which is good, one may say, for quote/unquote civilised society.
Chris: Are you really telling me you believe that if you have the instinct to do something, it's okay to do?
The Silver Bullet: I'm glad I've grown up with rules and law.
The Silver Bullet: But they are all human conceptions.
The Silver Bullet: I refuse to believe that something is wrong.
The Silver Bullet: It might not be social acceptable.
The Silver Bullet: Which is fine.
Chris: Then what is it?
The Silver Bullet: I refrain from doing such things.
Chris: So if I kill a newborn baby, what is that?
The Silver Bullet: You refrain from doing such things.
The Silver Bullet: It depends Chrissy-wissy.
Chris: On what?
The Silver Bullet: Why are you killing the baby?
The Silver Bullet: Just answer.
Chris: Because I'm ****ing crazy
The Silver Bullet: Make me a reason you murdering ****.
Chris: I'm just insane...so I snap and kill a baby.
The Silver Bullet: Becayse you're crazy?
The Silver Bullet: Okay.
The Silver Bullet: Nice one.
Chris: No logic behind it
The Silver Bullet: Righteo. Congratulations. You've just because a psychopath and can plead insanity and get out after some rehab (don't get me started)....
The Silver Bullet: Okay. So:
Chris: ?
Chris: I can't tell if you're typing or not, because MSN doesn't track it right
The Silver Bullet: Animals do this often. And we are animals. You said so in the love discussion. I recall, I does. When an animal kills because of madness or anger, chances is, that animal will be ****ed over themselves, eye for an eye from the other animals. So yeah. That's murder on all counts from everyone.
You kill the baby because you just don't want it, **** you, you're wrong, youshouldn't have.
The Silver Bullet: You kill it because of necessity, fine.
The Silver Bullet: Well, not fine.
Chris: Eye for an eye from the other animals? Not unless the animal is human
The Silver Bullet: I mean.
Chris: I'm wrong?
The Silver Bullet: Since when have humans not been animals?
Chris: It seems like you want to use the word wrong, but you don't want others to use it
Chris: If you don't believe in the word "wrong" then what do you call a senseless murder of a child?
Chris: It's a simple question
The Silver Bullet: Senseless.
Chris: Senseless. But not evil or wrong?
The Silver Bullet: Evil exists. Wrong is a word.
Chris: Evil is a word, too
The Silver Bullet: Yeah.
Chris: How exactly do you differentiate between evil and wrong?
The Silver Bullet: But I believe evil exists as a thing.
I believe wrong is a concept.
The Silver Bullet: This has nothing to do with abortions anymore.
Chris: So is evil, man.
Chris: All words are concepts
Chris: So, tell me: what is evil?
The Silver Bullet: Senseless killing.
But abortion isn't senseless.
And before you quote yourself, you asked what the senseless killing of a newborn baby was. You didn't mention abortion. You called the murder senesless. I'm assuming therefore that it was senseless. Can't use that against me.
Chris: Nope, not arguing that against you
The Silver Bullet: Lol.
Chris: I didn't mention abortion.
The Silver Bullet: "But I will argue this....."
Chris: What is evil?
The Silver Bullet: Senseless unrequited hatred [patent pending].
Chris: Should it be stopped?
The Silver Bullet: Evil?
Chris: Yes
The Silver Bullet: I don't think you will be able to, but sure, why not.
Chris: I'm asking if we ought to try to stop it whenever possible
The Silver Bullet: Your saying that abortion is unrequited hatred?
The Silver Bullet: Pshaw.
Chris: I said no such things
Chris: I'm just asking questions
The Silver Bullet: You were leading up to it.
The Silver Bullet: I'm becoming better at this off the cuff debates my friend.
The Silver Bullet: :d
Chris: It seems to me that "senseless" is the wild card, right?
Chris: Good for you. Answer the question
Chris: Show off your new skills
Chris: You define evil as "senseless unrequited hatred"
Chris: Now, is just plain old unrequited hatred evil?
The Silver Bullet: Just reading the movie tab. Movie. Tab. Hm. Would have never guessed.
Chris: Me neither
Chris: I don't like him
Chris: I have a requited hatred towards him
The Silver Bullet: Hey, I'll go with unrequited hatred *or* sensless unrequited hatred either way. Unrequited and senseless are the same bag.
Chris: Unrequited means "not returned"
Chris: More or less
The Silver Bullet: No it doesn't. It means no basis.
Chris: Like "unrequited love"
The Silver Bullet: My dictionary is different to yours.
The Silver Bullet: Brb.
Chris: Anyway, it matters not...my point is that it's not HATRED that you say is evil, it's SENSELESS hatred. So here's my question: who decides what is senseless? What if it's senseless to us, but makes perfect sense to the crazy person? Or to Hitler? Or whoever? Most evil wackos think they're doing the right thing
The Silver Bullet: No, you're right.
The Silver Bullet: Well, we'd better ditch unrequited.
Chris: Ok, senseless hatred then.
The Silver Bullet: Hatred with no basis for said hatred.
Chris: Who says what makes up a proper basis?
The Silver Bullet: Copy that. We'll be needing it.
The Silver Bullet: Senselessness I guess.
Chris: Very funny
Chris: Hitler thought he had a good basis for killing the Jews
Chris: He thought they were weakening the human race
Chris: He was evil, right?
The Silver Bullet: 50% + 1
The Silver Bullet: Majority rules.
The Silver Bullet: First mention of Hitler.
Chris: So, whatever the majority of human beings says is what's senseless, eh?
Chris: I don't buy the majority thing, and I highly doubt you do.
The Silver Bullet: I knew it was coming. I thought I may have mentioned him first. Well done. Gold star.
The Silver Bullet: No, I don't really. You're highly doubt in based on me : because I believe the majority is a theatrette of puppets...
The Silver Bullet: Who says Hitler *was* evil?
The Silver Bullet: I'm trying a new tack.
Chris: I do. I hope you do
The Silver Bullet: Yeah, I do.
Chris: I dearly hope you do
Chris: Glad to hear it
The Silver Bullet: Brilliant political stratgist though.
The Silver Bullet: I mean that.
Chris: Yes. He was a very smart man
The Silver Bullet: Okay.
The Silver Bullet: But what makes us right?
Chris: About what? These opinions?
The Silver Bullet: About Hitler, for now.
Chris: Well, if you don't believe in absolutes in these subjects, then absolutely nothing makes us right, because this is all 100% opinion
The Silver Bullet: Are we right in saying he was evil?
Chris: I think we are, yes
The Silver Bullet: You think? THINK?!
The Silver Bullet: :d
Chris: Yep
The Silver Bullet: Well.
The Silver Bullet: I don't think killing fetus' is wrong.
The Silver Bullet: You do.
The Silver Bullet: It is evil, isn't evil.
The Silver Bullet: It's all opinion and will spark many more debates to come.
Chris: In the end it all comes down to opinion, yes
Chris: HOWEVER
Chris: However...most people have conflicting opinions on issues like abortion and what is right and wrong. That's what I'm trying to get at.
Chris: Anyway, if you'd like to move on, that's fine by me. It's your call.
The Silver Bullet: Lol. Do you think we're done? That we went through all of that to get to the point of saying we have to agree to disagree because it's opinion based?! WE COULD HAVE DONE THAT AT THE START WHEN YOU SAID YES AND I SAID NO!!!
The Silver Bullet:
Chris: Well, duh. But even if it's all opinion, I'll bet your own opinions don't totally line up
Chris: I don't think all mine do, either, though...so don't take it personally
The Silver Bullet: God. You've got me in such a state. But do you know how I calm down after a hot debate with Chris?
The Silver Bullet: I abort fetuses at my local clinic.
Chris: I finished listening to it
The Silver Bullet: And?
The Silver Bullet: 'Taint pro-life.
Chris: It'll creep you out a bit if you're not already familiar with the horrors of abortion
Chris: IMO
The Silver Bullet: I'm up with abortion.
Chris: Whatcha think of it?
The Silver Bullet: Didn't download it. I'll do it at school.
The Silver Bullet: Connection's just too slow here.
Chris: No, I mean, of abortion
The Silver Bullet: Oh.
The Silver Bullet: Nyeh. Let people do what they want to do.
The Silver Bullet: I realise the whole life thing.
Chris: Well, yeah, let people do what they wanna do...unless it harms other people
The Silver Bullet: But we kill animals everyday. Where's the complaining there.
The Silver Bullet: Hang on.
Chris: You think killing an animal is the same thing?
The Silver Bullet: Let me write.
Chris: LOL
Chris: Gotcha
The Silver Bullet: This is the first time I've really contemplated this stuff. Can't be bothered contemplating it. Human life isn't something I care much about.
The Silver Bullet: So hang on.
The Silver Bullet: Okay. The argument is that fetus' are humans. But the way I see it, they haven't had time to develope personality or intelligence of any sort. It doesn't know any better. Your not really denying a fetus of anything. We kill animals, whom we assume don't know **** about ****, because it aids our livlihood as people. Killing off fetus' whom we assume, I guess, don't know **** about **** aids some people's mental states.
The Silver Bullet: People who have abortions often get ****ed afterwards, so be it.
The Silver Bullet: It doesn't bother me. It's not harming other people because it's not technically a person. It isn't, not really. It *is* a life, yes, yes it is. A waste of *life* perhaps, but not of a person.
Chris: So, if a person falls into a coma and is a vegetable, and the family doesn't want to be bothered with them, they should be allowed to kill them?
The Silver Bullet: No. I would think that's a little different.
Chris: So, you don't view human life as sacred?
The Silver Bullet: Firstly, I think you would find there's not *that* many groups of ****ed people who couldn't be bothered with a ****ed up brother or whatever.
The Silver Bullet: There are some, sure.
The Silver Bullet: But what heartless ****s, right?
Chris: phone
Chris: Sorry, back
Chris: It rings a lot in the morning
Chris: Well, it's not about how many there are. This is all hypothetical.
The Silver Bullet: The difference is, a fetus is a human life, sure, but it's not a developed human life. Before you go nuts, I don't mean a baby is not a developed human life. Even a baby has personality. Even a person in a coma/vegetable state once had a personality.
The Silver Bullet: You may say someone is denying a fetus the right to personality.
Chris: Ok, so at what moment does a fetus develop a personality? How much of the brain needs to be developed?
The Silver Bullet: But ****, we deny black people and Asians and ourselves a right to a personality.
Chris: No we don't.
The Silver Bullet: Yeah, we do.
Chris: How?
The Silver Bullet: Society is an organism. I'm not going to get into it. I'll sound like my narrator.
Chris: Yeah, probably
But it doesn't matter anyway...the issue is abortion and abortion aloneChris: Some other ****ed up policy outside of it is not justification
Chris: So here's what I'm asking: is human life sacred, or not? Do we need to be very careful to protect it, or not?
The Silver Bullet: Humanity is sacred.
Not so much human life, but humanity.
Chris: Because, ya know, no one knows when a "personality" is formed. There's no medical, technical signal
The Silver Bullet: The question is, at what point does a fetus get humanity?
Chris: So my logic is: if we don't know WHEN, why risk it?
The Silver Bullet: You might say the moment a baby breaths air, that's humanity. But I disagree. You may say at conception, I disagree. The first thought, the first purely pure actual thought of a fetus? Yes. That's my humanity. The moment something is thinking, sure, why not then? How do you mark that point? Who ****ing knows?
Chris: Exactly!
The Silver Bullet: Let's find out, draw a line.
Chris: We can't find out
Chris: It's not like that. It varies
The Silver Bullet: We will one die.
The Silver Bullet: Science is too rampant.
The Silver Bullet: It doesn't vary too much.
Chris: If we don't know when that thought occurs, I say, why should we risk it? If we're wrong, then that's over 1 million people dead each year.
Chris: It varies enough! This is not something to be taken lightly or casually
The Silver Bullet: People in waiting.
Chris: People in waiting are still people
The Silver Bullet: No. They're people in waiting.
Chris: They WILL grow to be humans, unless you KILL the life they have
The Silver Bullet: This is the most Christiany you I've ever talked with.
Chris: Abortion and Christianity are not related
Chris: We haven't mentioned God once
The Silver Bullet: You seem to be getting more pent up over this than I. That's new.
The Silver Bullet: You know what I mean.
The Silver Bullet: God aside.
Chris: I'm not pent up...just adamant
Chris: Very adamant.
Chris: It's apathy that has so many people in favor of abortion...mark my words on that
Chris: They'd rather not even think about it
The Silver Bullet: No, this is the first time I've put my thoughts down, but it's not something that I haven't thought about.
Chris: Just ignore it and maybe it'll go away. That sort of thing. It's the shunning of responsibility for a lot of people...just like getting an abortion is. You had a kid...deal with it.
The Silver Bullet: You enjoy speaking for wide groups of people, no?
Chris: Nope
The Silver Bullet: Good.
Chris: These are my opinions
Chris: But do you really think I'm all that far off?
The Silver Bullet: I've never talked about it with other people, really. I know I'm for it because the way I see it, you want to stop deaths, focus on the people who are already out of wombs and have created lives around them. That might seem harsh and I'm not disputing that unborn children have the potential to do so. But I'm getting off track...
The Silver Bullet: ...just because I haven't spoken my thoughts doesn't mean I haven't thought about it. Therefore my theories aren't based on apathy, I have thought about it and I've weighed up all the thoughts in my mind.
Chris: I see your point...but that's really not the issue. I think it's quite simple: if you think human life is scared, we need to err on the side of caution.
Chris: I'm not saying YOU are apathetic
The Silver Bullet: Debate is good, but it's not apathy and a ignorance that has put me in favor of it.
The Silver Bullet: Yes but Chris.
Chris: I'm saying most people are. And by God, it's true...especially in the USA
The Silver Bullet: Stop writing a moment.
The Silver Bullet: My glory a second, please:
The Silver Bullet: Chris, I'm not apathetic. You agree?
Chris: Yes, you don't seem apathetic
The Silver Bullet: Well, you know what I mean. I say I'm not, you don't think I am, that'll do there.
The Silver Bullet: Now, now, hang on:
Chris: Right
Chris: Relax
Chris: It's like you're afraid I'm gonna burst and just start spouting off for hours
The Silver Bullet: Chris, answer me this:
How many absoloutes are there in life? There can't be none, because that is an abosloute, right?
Using your logic:
If I'm one person who hasn't spoken about but has based my favor without apathy, for all we know...
There are countless numbers of:
i. people like myself
ii. pins in my mouth
iii. absoloutes in life
The Silver Bullet:
Chris: Readin'
Chris: I don't know how many absolutes there are. At least one. That's all we know for sure.
The Silver Bullet: Now, you trap me with my logic, we'll call it checkmate. I had to do it.
The Silver Bullet:
Chris: Checkmate? Are you kidding me?
The Silver Bullet: I meant you checking me, retard.
Chris: Yes, "for all we know" could be used a billion ways. For all we know, everyone we've never met might be 10 feet tall
Chris: LOL
Chris: But when you talk to dozens of people on a subject, and see a universal consistency between basically all of them, naturally you make an assumption that, unless you've run into a LOT of coincidences, these people speak for most others. Just like a survey
The Silver Bullet: You could have easily used my logic of, "I have one pin in my mouth. You don't know this for sure, I could have hundreds, but the truth is and that doesn't that this away, there is only one."
The Silver Bullet: Basically it comes down to this:
The Silver Bullet: For me:
The Silver Bullet: We have bigger things to worry about than arbortion, if we want to worry about unnessacary deaths/murders/etc. I'm not saying put abortion out of sight and out of mind, I'm just saying. Life is life is life, be it fetus, human, cow.
The Silver Bullet: We all have what it common:
We're all out there for our own survival. We're animals, it's what we do. Some animals go nuts, so be it, others kill their offspring, so be it.
Chris: Ah, but you see, that depends, too. If we conclude that abortion is NOT murder, then yes, we have bigger things to worry about. If it IS, then what could be much bigger than a million legalized murders a year?
Chris: See what I mean?
The Silver Bullet: The problem with humanity:
We have moral codes.
Chris: So be it? No no no...we fight the wrongs. We don't chalk it up to instinct and accept it
Chris: "We're all animals. Some of us will lead the Nazis in genocide. So be it"?
The Silver Bullet: A tiger living in Sumatra has a litter of cubs. There are too many for it to feed and take care of it. It can't provide. Off with the little one's head.
It's nature.
Woman can't provide for a child, can't stand putting it up for adoption, has an abortion.
Murder?!
The Silver Bullet: I've made up my mind.
Chris: YES. We don't hold ourselves to the standards of animals, man
The Silver Bullet: Just then.
The Silver Bullet: It depends on the situation.
The Silver Bullet: If someone is having an abortion because they don't want the baby, that's selfish bull****.
Chris: Yes...animals do not revere life. We do. That's a GOOD thing
Chris: Yes, it is...and it's always the BULK of abortions
The Silver Bullet: Bulk.
The Silver Bullet: You can cut the numbers down it's not going to change the fact it still happens, where do you stand there?
Chris: See, this "it's nature" stuff is a real cop-out. Nature does a lot of God-awful things.
Chris: Cut what numbers down?
The Silver Bullet: You're saying what, we're above nature?
Chris: I'm saying just because animals do it, or just because we feel the impulse to do it, doesn't make it okay.
The Silver Bullet: Because why?
Chris: Besides: what do you define as "nature" anyway? Isn't it just instinct, primarily?
The Silver Bullet: By the standards of whom does impulse and nature not make something okay?
Chris: Good God, hopefully YOU
Chris: Ever had the impulse to punch someone for no good reason, Matt?
The Silver Bullet: Yes. Often I make it a verbal attack though. It's more me.
Chris: This entire argument is contingent on the fact that you actually believe that some things are wrong, of course
The Silver Bullet: "Just a prisoner of society, society, society...."
Chris: If you don't, it's pointless...
The Silver Bullet: Nothing in the world is wrong. There are things that are dirty, grotesque, sickening, troublesome. But nothing is quote/unquote wrong. Right and wrong is a human concept which we have grown up with, hence it's become an insctinct over-rider. Which is good, one may say, for quote/unquote civilised society.
Chris: Are you really telling me you believe that if you have the instinct to do something, it's okay to do?
The Silver Bullet: I'm glad I've grown up with rules and law.
The Silver Bullet: But they are all human conceptions.
The Silver Bullet: I refuse to believe that something is wrong.
The Silver Bullet: It might not be social acceptable.
The Silver Bullet: Which is fine.
Chris: Then what is it?
The Silver Bullet: I refrain from doing such things.
Chris: So if I kill a newborn baby, what is that?
The Silver Bullet: You refrain from doing such things.
The Silver Bullet: It depends Chrissy-wissy.
Chris: On what?
The Silver Bullet: Why are you killing the baby?
The Silver Bullet: Just answer.
Chris: Because I'm ****ing crazy
The Silver Bullet: Make me a reason you murdering ****.
Chris: I'm just insane...so I snap and kill a baby.
The Silver Bullet: Becayse you're crazy?
The Silver Bullet: Okay.
The Silver Bullet: Nice one.
Chris: No logic behind it
The Silver Bullet: Righteo. Congratulations. You've just because a psychopath and can plead insanity and get out after some rehab (don't get me started)....
The Silver Bullet: Okay. So:
Chris: ?
Chris: I can't tell if you're typing or not, because MSN doesn't track it right
The Silver Bullet: Animals do this often. And we are animals. You said so in the love discussion. I recall, I does. When an animal kills because of madness or anger, chances is, that animal will be ****ed over themselves, eye for an eye from the other animals. So yeah. That's murder on all counts from everyone.
You kill the baby because you just don't want it, **** you, you're wrong, youshouldn't have.
The Silver Bullet: You kill it because of necessity, fine.
The Silver Bullet: Well, not fine.
Chris: Eye for an eye from the other animals? Not unless the animal is human
The Silver Bullet: I mean.
Chris: I'm wrong?
The Silver Bullet: Since when have humans not been animals?
Chris: It seems like you want to use the word wrong, but you don't want others to use it
Chris: If you don't believe in the word "wrong" then what do you call a senseless murder of a child?
Chris: It's a simple question
The Silver Bullet: Senseless.
Chris: Senseless. But not evil or wrong?
The Silver Bullet: Evil exists. Wrong is a word.
Chris: Evil is a word, too
The Silver Bullet: Yeah.
Chris: How exactly do you differentiate between evil and wrong?
The Silver Bullet: But I believe evil exists as a thing.
I believe wrong is a concept.
The Silver Bullet: This has nothing to do with abortions anymore.
Chris: So is evil, man.
Chris: All words are concepts
Chris: So, tell me: what is evil?
The Silver Bullet: Senseless killing.
But abortion isn't senseless.
And before you quote yourself, you asked what the senseless killing of a newborn baby was. You didn't mention abortion. You called the murder senesless. I'm assuming therefore that it was senseless. Can't use that against me.
Chris: Nope, not arguing that against you
The Silver Bullet: Lol.
Chris: I didn't mention abortion.
The Silver Bullet: "But I will argue this....."
Chris: What is evil?
The Silver Bullet: Senseless unrequited hatred [patent pending].
Chris: Should it be stopped?
The Silver Bullet: Evil?
Chris: Yes
The Silver Bullet: I don't think you will be able to, but sure, why not.
Chris: I'm asking if we ought to try to stop it whenever possible
The Silver Bullet: Your saying that abortion is unrequited hatred?
The Silver Bullet: Pshaw.
Chris: I said no such things
Chris: I'm just asking questions
The Silver Bullet: You were leading up to it.
The Silver Bullet: I'm becoming better at this off the cuff debates my friend.
The Silver Bullet: :d
Chris: It seems to me that "senseless" is the wild card, right?
Chris: Good for you. Answer the question
Chris: Show off your new skills
Chris: You define evil as "senseless unrequited hatred"
Chris: Now, is just plain old unrequited hatred evil?
The Silver Bullet: Just reading the movie tab. Movie. Tab. Hm. Would have never guessed.
Chris: Me neither
Chris: I don't like him
Chris: I have a requited hatred towards him
The Silver Bullet: Hey, I'll go with unrequited hatred *or* sensless unrequited hatred either way. Unrequited and senseless are the same bag.
Chris: Unrequited means "not returned"
Chris: More or less
The Silver Bullet: No it doesn't. It means no basis.
Chris: Like "unrequited love"
The Silver Bullet: My dictionary is different to yours.
The Silver Bullet: Brb.
Chris: Anyway, it matters not...my point is that it's not HATRED that you say is evil, it's SENSELESS hatred. So here's my question: who decides what is senseless? What if it's senseless to us, but makes perfect sense to the crazy person? Or to Hitler? Or whoever? Most evil wackos think they're doing the right thing
The Silver Bullet: No, you're right.
The Silver Bullet: Well, we'd better ditch unrequited.
Chris: Ok, senseless hatred then.
The Silver Bullet: Hatred with no basis for said hatred.
Chris: Who says what makes up a proper basis?
The Silver Bullet: Copy that. We'll be needing it.
The Silver Bullet: Senselessness I guess.
Chris: Very funny
Chris: Hitler thought he had a good basis for killing the Jews
Chris: He thought they were weakening the human race
Chris: He was evil, right?
The Silver Bullet: 50% + 1
The Silver Bullet: Majority rules.
The Silver Bullet: First mention of Hitler.
Chris: So, whatever the majority of human beings says is what's senseless, eh?
Chris: I don't buy the majority thing, and I highly doubt you do.
The Silver Bullet: I knew it was coming. I thought I may have mentioned him first. Well done. Gold star.
The Silver Bullet: No, I don't really. You're highly doubt in based on me : because I believe the majority is a theatrette of puppets...
The Silver Bullet: Who says Hitler *was* evil?
The Silver Bullet: I'm trying a new tack.
Chris: I do. I hope you do
The Silver Bullet: Yeah, I do.
Chris: I dearly hope you do
Chris: Glad to hear it
The Silver Bullet: Brilliant political stratgist though.
The Silver Bullet: I mean that.
Chris: Yes. He was a very smart man
The Silver Bullet: Okay.
The Silver Bullet: But what makes us right?
Chris: About what? These opinions?
The Silver Bullet: About Hitler, for now.
Chris: Well, if you don't believe in absolutes in these subjects, then absolutely nothing makes us right, because this is all 100% opinion
The Silver Bullet: Are we right in saying he was evil?
Chris: I think we are, yes
The Silver Bullet: You think? THINK?!
The Silver Bullet: :d
Chris: Yep
The Silver Bullet: Well.
The Silver Bullet: I don't think killing fetus' is wrong.
The Silver Bullet: You do.
The Silver Bullet: It is evil, isn't evil.
The Silver Bullet: It's all opinion and will spark many more debates to come.
Chris: In the end it all comes down to opinion, yes
Chris: HOWEVER
Chris: However...most people have conflicting opinions on issues like abortion and what is right and wrong. That's what I'm trying to get at.
Chris: Anyway, if you'd like to move on, that's fine by me. It's your call.
The Silver Bullet: Lol. Do you think we're done? That we went through all of that to get to the point of saying we have to agree to disagree because it's opinion based?! WE COULD HAVE DONE THAT AT THE START WHEN YOU SAID YES AND I SAID NO!!!
The Silver Bullet:
Chris: Well, duh. But even if it's all opinion, I'll bet your own opinions don't totally line up
Chris: I don't think all mine do, either, though...so don't take it personally
The Silver Bullet: God. You've got me in such a state. But do you know how I calm down after a hot debate with Chris?
The Silver Bullet: I abort fetuses at my local clinic.
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www.esotericrabbit.com
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Coming soon, to a movie forum near you...
Chris Bowyer and Matt Clayfield (or Matt Clayfield and Chris Bowyer) in Bowling for Abortion.
Sounds like a twisted Jerry Lewis telethon...
Chris Bowyer and Matt Clayfield (or Matt Clayfield and Chris Bowyer) in Bowling for Abortion.
Sounds like a twisted Jerry Lewis telethon...
Originally posted by Mary Loquacious
What an epic...
What an epic...
Originally posted by LordSlaytan
My main reasoning for being pro-choice is that it's none of my business. I can't get pregnant, so what right do I have to impose my will? I understand your veiwpoint on the "life within", I really do.
My main reasoning for being pro-choice is that it's none of my business. I can't get pregnant, so what right do I have to impose my will? I understand your veiwpoint on the "life within", I really do.
BTW; while I respect and admire women for having the ability (and strength) to have children, I do not think you need to have that ability yourself to have an opinion on abortion. If that were true, would you need to be related to a murder victim to have a stance on murder? Would you have to be stolen from to speak out against theft?
Originally posted by LordSlaytan
It's not her argument, she's forced to respond because someone else believes of their absolute certainty that it is wrong.
I am also very concerned about the staggering population problems our planet and species is suffering with. If all the unwanted children are not born, as harsh as it is, so be it. It only can only help that problem.
It's not her argument, she's forced to respond because someone else believes of their absolute certainty that it is wrong.
I am also very concerned about the staggering population problems our planet and species is suffering with. If all the unwanted children are not born, as harsh as it is, so be it. It only can only help that problem.
The population is irrelevant. I think we all agree that whether it helps that problem or not, all that matters is the sanctity of life here. That's the issue. If they really are alive...if they really are HUMAN...what else could POSSIBLY matter to override their lives?
Originally posted by LordSlaytan
I am a realtist, not a religious man. If I were, I'm sure I would feel differently.
I am a realtist, not a religious man. If I were, I'm sure I would feel differently.
Originally posted by Piddzilla
Do you remember being born? Was it painful for you? I think my first memory in life is from I was 2-3 years old. Not 2-3 weeks since the egg I came from started to develop into me. Life or not, the feetus never comprehends what happens to it, no matter how tragic the procedure is.
Do you remember being born? Was it painful for you? I think my first memory in life is from I was 2-3 years old. Not 2-3 weeks since the egg I came from started to develop into me. Life or not, the feetus never comprehends what happens to it, no matter how tragic the procedure is.
Originally posted by Piddzilla
I think an abortion is one of the hardest things a woman may have to face. It IS her choice (it's not a slogan, you dope) BUT the man owes her to give her his opinion. Whatever she chooses to do, he will have to support her to 100%.
I think an abortion is one of the hardest things a woman may have to face. It IS her choice (it's not a slogan, you dope) BUT the man owes her to give her his opinion. Whatever she chooses to do, he will have to support her to 100%.
I explained why it is a slogan: because it's *not* an argument. When the issue is "is it her body or not?" saying "It's her body" is not an argument, it's 100% rhetorical. It has no substance, it is simply an unsupported opinion. It gets us nowhere and makes no reasonable argument in any direction.
Originally posted by Piddzilla
Yoda, for you the issue seems to be, is the feetus a human being or not? It's not important. Even if it was (which it's not) there are other factors that are more important. The future, safety and well-being of the mother and, most importantly, the newborn child. I don't see why a 16-year old girl should ruin her and her child's lives because some rightwing, fundamentally christian men think it was "an act of God's will" or something.
Yoda, for you the issue seems to be, is the feetus a human being or not? It's not important. Even if it was (which it's not) there are other factors that are more important. The future, safety and well-being of the mother and, most importantly, the newborn child. I don't see why a 16-year old girl should ruin her and her child's lives because some rightwing, fundamentally christian men think it was "an act of God's will" or something.
Why is it not important whether or not it is a human? Are you actually implying that something is more important in that situation than the life of a human infant?
Originally posted by Piddzilla
An abortion is tragic, but is it more tragic than a five year old starving to death? A seven year old dying from AIDS? A twelve year old overdosing on heroine? A sixteen year old being shot to death? Or a twenty year old being sentenced to death by a state that refuses to allow abortions?? Maybe it would have been better if the mom just died from bloodloss while having an illegal abortion performed on her.
An abortion is tragic, but is it more tragic than a five year old starving to death? A seven year old dying from AIDS? A twelve year old overdosing on heroine? A sixteen year old being shot to death? Or a twenty year old being sentenced to death by a state that refuses to allow abortions?? Maybe it would have been better if the mom just died from bloodloss while having an illegal abortion performed on her.
I don't know which of the above events is more tragic. I don't label and value human life like that. All I know is that we should go to any plausible length to protect it ALL. The life of one human (especially a defenseless infant) comes before the comfort or convienence of a teenager or adult who engaged in an act they knew MAY lead to a pregnancy. That's just common sense. The baby had no say, and at least deserves a right to life.
Originally posted by Piddzilla
There is always a choice, and the choice is always the woman's. It's one thing to consider abortion an immoral thing to do for yourself, but don't force that view on other people.
There is always a choice, and the choice is always the woman's. It's one thing to consider abortion an immoral thing to do for yourself, but don't force that view on other people.
Originally posted by Piddzilla
Are there no situations at all where you think an abortion would be acceptable?
Are there no situations at all where you think an abortion would be acceptable?
Another part of me wonders; if it's okay to abort an unwanted pregnancy due to rape, is it okay to kill that same child after its born for the same reason? If not, why not?
Originally posted by Piddzilla
What's your opinion on death penalty?
What's your opinion on death penalty?
Now, it's my turn:
#1 - Is human life highly valuable and sacred? Why or why not?
#2 - Should the man have as much say in the abortion as a woman? Clearly a baby is a joint venture...so, what happens if the man wants the baby, but the woman does not?
#3 - Why does it being a human not matter to you? After all, if we're legally killing 1.3 million humans a year, isn't that something that should be fought?
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The first thought, the first purely pure actual thought of a fetus? Yes. That's my humanity.
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"I bet one legend that keeps reoccurring throughout history, in every culture, is the story of Popeye."
"I bet one legend that keeps reoccurring throughout history, in every culture, is the story of Popeye."
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I suppose he says them so as to get himself out of the debate with you, which I can understand perfectly!
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Here's something else for you to pick apart Yoda.
You are on the side of an argument that is irrefutable and undeniable; The sanctity of human life.
How can a person debate with someone who is convinced that it is murder? It's not possible.
I believe there are times when there is no other alternative, for example; The woman who is raped, the diabetic who will die if she goes to term, A woman who is much to old to have a child, A young kid who thought all the precautions were taken. I don't like it when women uses it as a form of birth control, my neice has done that three times now, and I hate it. But what can I do to stop her? Vote against pro choice, so the others that I have listed have no more options than unsafe illeagle abortions?
I do believe that the child is alive, I'm not arguing against that fact, Christ I'm not a moron(I just play one on TV). But there are mitigating circumstances during certain pregnancys, that leave no hope for a poor woman, than to have an abortion.
Personally, I wish we could steralize a lot of the crack whores giving birth to future criminals. Also for the stupid girls, that sleep with every swinging d!ck, and has abortions because a rubber might not make the guy happy. I'm also tired of seeing west coast immigrants, by the hundreds, having 5 children under seven, and pregnant with the next. While I pay my taxes that pays for their welfare. Oops, maybe I went to far. Regardless, I am for and not for at the same time, but it still comes down to being...none of my business. No matter what you say.
You are on the side of an argument that is irrefutable and undeniable; The sanctity of human life.
How can a person debate with someone who is convinced that it is murder? It's not possible.
I believe there are times when there is no other alternative, for example; The woman who is raped, the diabetic who will die if she goes to term, A woman who is much to old to have a child, A young kid who thought all the precautions were taken. I don't like it when women uses it as a form of birth control, my neice has done that three times now, and I hate it. But what can I do to stop her? Vote against pro choice, so the others that I have listed have no more options than unsafe illeagle abortions?
I do believe that the child is alive, I'm not arguing against that fact, Christ I'm not a moron(I just play one on TV). But there are mitigating circumstances during certain pregnancys, that leave no hope for a poor woman, than to have an abortion.
Personally, I wish we could steralize a lot of the crack whores giving birth to future criminals. Also for the stupid girls, that sleep with every swinging d!ck, and has abortions because a rubber might not make the guy happy. I'm also tired of seeing west coast immigrants, by the hundreds, having 5 children under seven, and pregnant with the next. While I pay my taxes that pays for their welfare. Oops, maybe I went to far. Regardless, I am for and not for at the same time, but it still comes down to being...none of my business. No matter what you say.
Gee, call me crazy, but I don't seem to think I sound cruel and heartless at all. You just sound fanatic and strange.
And besides, I do agree with that point that I made and I will stand by it. Abortion is an opinion thing whether you like it or not. I may not be right Gracie, but nor are you.
You're assuming then, I guess, that there is a destiny or fate waiting for everyone? The person that we grow up to be isn't predetermined, Gracie. The great doctor who is going cure cancer isn't going to be born with the cure for cancer in him; the person he becomes doesn't come from nine months in the womb, for crying out loud, it comes from nine years being brought up by his or her parents. The person we become is a matter of experience and upbringing and environment. You're acting as though you are born with this path set out; or not even born, that you are brought into being at the very moment of conception with a predetermined path. Pshaw! Go sell it someplace else.
And besides, I do agree with that point that I made and I will stand by it. Abortion is an opinion thing whether you like it or not. I may not be right Gracie, but nor are you.
What if one of the babys' was the next Einstein? Or a baby that would have grown up to be a great doctor and discover the cure for cancer?
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