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I've never been too hung up on labels. I think most of us know enough horror movies that aren't "horrifying", even by design, yet the genre seems a good enough way to categorize them.


Some of the qualities that attract me to these pornos seem unrelated, or even antithetical to their genre, but at the same time that genre seems like a good enough way to refer to them, in light of their overall use of tropes. I consider it a descriptor more than a judgment.
The problem is that "porn", as commonly used, is a judgment. I've been guilty of this as well. "Torture-porn", "Disaster-porn", all of these things describe something that we should be ashamed of indulging. It's just short-hand at this point. Unfortunately this short hand also applies as porn being anything involving explicit sexuality, with the assumption that sexuality is automatically shameful. And a lot of what we can consider true porn does exploit the more shameful aspects of sexuality, the taboo being a major feature of the turn-on. But what I mean to say is that it should be time to do away with the idea that sex=porn, and those films which dealt with explicit sex in the 70s-80s maybe shouldn't be considered porn if they aren't functionally exploitative.


But, yes. it is semantics in a sense. "I know it when I see it" and all of that.



The problem is that "porn", as commonly used, is a judgment. I've been guilty of this as well. "Torture-porn", "Disaster-porn", all of these things describe something that we should be ashamed of indulging. It's just short-hand at this point. Unfortunately this short hand also applies as porn being anything involving explicit sexuality, with the assumption that sexuality is automatically shameful. And a lot of what we can consider true porn does exploit the more shameful aspects of sexuality, the taboo being a major feature of the turn-on. But what I mean to say is that it should be time to do away with the idea that sex=porn, and those films which dealt with explicit sex in the 70s-80s maybe shouldn't be considered porn if they aren't functionally exploitative.


But, yes. it is semantics in a sense. "I know it when I see it" and all of that.
This is fair. I do feel, at least from my limited internet exposure, that there's been a steady shift in cinephile circles towards acceptance of such movies. (Certainly in my Letterboxd feed, the move to include adult films seemed positively received, although given that site's format, it's hard to really see chatter in the aggregate. I did see some grousing, but given that it's opt-in functionality, it's not like one's feed would go to the dogs and they'd be helpless to do anything about it.) At the risk of of sounding like a shill, I think the fact that Vinegar Syndrome has put as much effort as it has into digging up movies in this genre, even ones that don't have substantially greater ambitions than getting the viewer off, have helped people start thinking of these movies as having actual cinematic value. My interest in the genre predated my awareness of this company's output, but they've certainly been conducive to my exploration.


As for the shame element...I certainly don't go around telling people in person about these movies, but I also don't discuss my viewing habits in general (too many bad experiences of "hey, can you recommend me a movie" and getting mad later that it wasn't their speed). In theory, I'd like to believe any genre can make for a good movie, and at least some of my interest in this genre came as a result.



As for Jet Li, he's unfortunately a pretty big blind spot for me, as I've associated him (maybe incorrectly) with the rise of exaggerated wirework, which I'm not really a big fan of, so I've stayed away for the most part. (Same reason I'm kind of so so on the universally beloved Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.) I should correct this at some point.
I'm extremely disappointed to see you say that about Crouching Tiger, since it was one of the first movies I ever truly loved as an "adult" (and still do to this day), but I fortunately also just stumbled onto this highly positive first-time review of it on Letterboxd just now, so I declare the movie-verse to be officially balanced out now!



My preference for martial arts cinema has been mostly Shaw Brothers. I had the opportunity to see a few of them in the theatre and would very much recommend the experience. I used to be indifferent to seeing a movie at home vs the theatre, but it's really something else to see an entire audience react together to one of these movies. There's one moment during the Eight Diagram Pole Fighter where the crowd went completely silent and then burst into applause in unison.
I took a quick peek at what i could find, and have seen first 10 minutes of The Five Deadly Venoms. It looks very good to be fair. I am gonna have a long walk now first, then i will finish The Five Deadly Venoms. Then i will take a evaluation of the situation.
Thanks Rockatansky.



Even though it is obviously well made, I've never much cared for Crouching Tiger either.


In turns of pure cinematic poetry, Eight Diagram Pole Fighter is the best I've seen



Even though it is obviously well made, I've never much cared for Crouching Tiger either.


In turns of pure cinematic poetry, Eight Diagram Pole Fighter is the best I've seen
I'd agree, but given that it reflects on the revenge plots the drive most of these movies, I would suggest holding off on it until one has dig further. At the very least, I would suggest watching The 36th Chamber of Shaolin first, which I think is probably the best intro to these movies possible.*



I eventually cut Crouching Tiger from my 00s top 100 when compiling it recently. I felt OK about it.



I actually don't think the movie is even bad (I gave it a 7/10). It's just that aside from the wirework, I find it a little too studied for me to really embrace. I guess I like Lee better when he's unguarded and goofy.



I actually don't think the movie is even bad (I gave it a 7/10). It's just that aside from the wirework, I find it a little too studied for me to really embrace. I guess I like Lee better when he's unguarded and goofy.
I'd go 8/10, but I've found that there's a whole lot of 9/10s from the 00s.



Sorry if I'm rude but I'm right
I'm extremely disappointed to see you say that about Crouching Tiger
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is a wuxia for normies who can't into Wuxia. Just like any Tarantino is an exploitation film for normies who can't into Exploitation. They would then watch any classic Wuxia/Exploitation film and moan how Lee's/Tarantino's films are better. No, they aren't. You're a normie with terrible taste. Get over it.

BTW, this is not a personal jab at StuSmallz. It's OK to like these films, especially if they were some defining films on your cinephile's journey. But anybody who took time to get into the classics of their respective genres can see these genre revivals are but shadows of their great predecessors, tweaked to fit the palate of the general audience. Take any popular Shaw Brothers film and it's going to be better than Crouching Tiger. I'm not even mentioning King Hu.

All that being said, I still like Tarantino. Ang Lee has only one great film - Eat Drink Man Woman (stretching the definition of 'great' here but I have a soft spot for these Chinese New Year films!), but there are still some I haven't seen.
__________________
Look, I'm not judging you - after all, I'm posting here myself, but maybe, just maybe, if you spent less time here and more time watching films, maybe, and I stress, maybe your taste would be of some value. Just a thought, ya know.



Ang Lee is more of an American director than a Chinese one for most of his career. My favorite film of his is still The Ice Storm.



No love for Gemini Man and its numerous HFR closeups on CGI Will Smith?



No love for Gemini Man and its numerous HFR closeups on CGI Will Smith?
For the record, I like the movie, and goofy things like that are way. I appreciate Lee's willingness to tie the technology into the storytelling, even if the results are inconsistent. There's one chase scene that kicks all kinds of ass, would have loved to see it in a theatre.



Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is a wuxia for normies who can't into Wuxia. Just like any Tarantino is an exploitation film for normies who can't into Exploitation. They would then watch any classic Wuxia/Exploitation film and moan how Lee's/Tarantino's films are better. No, they aren't. You're a normie with terrible taste. Get over it.

BTW, this is not a personal jab at StuSmallz. It's OK to like these films, especially if they were some defining films on your cinephile's journey. But anybody who took time to get into the classics of their respective genres can see these genre revivals are but shadows of their great predecessors, tweaked to fit the palate of the general audience. Take any popular Shaw Brothers film and it's going to be better than Crouching Tiger. I'm not even mentioning King Hu.

All that being said, I still like Tarantino. Ang Lee has only one great film - Eat Drink Man Woman (stretching the definition of 'great' here but I have a soft spot for these Chinese New Year films!), but there are still some I haven't seen.
Speak for yourself, because I've seen and enjoyed old-school Wuxia before, while also loving Crouching Tiger at the same time; it's not some either/or dilemma between classic and modern examples of the genre. As for Tarantino, it's interesting that you criticize his movies as being exploitation for normies, because, while I'm a (occasional) fan of him, the more exploit-y aspects of his work tend to be the weakest parts (like the pawn shop sequence in Pulp), which is why I feel Jackie Brown is his best movie, since it has the least of that, and the most of what makes his movies worth watching, which is the substantive character development (which is something he's often forgotten about in the past fifteen years of his career).



My thoughts on Crouching Tiger and Tarantino aside, if someone cites their homages to/reflections on their respective genres to dismiss their inspirations, that seems to be taking the wrong message from their work.



The trick is not minding
Aside from Eat Drink Man Woman, my other two favorite Lee films, particularly from 00’s, are Lust, Caution, and Brokeback Mountain. Crouching Tiger is just a bit behind them. Need to see his other films yet



I don't think I've ever particularly loved any Ang Lee movie. Ice Storm and Brokeback I might consider his best. Both fairly solid movies, but nothing revelatory for me. Then Crouching Tiger, which I've already said I'm a little meh on....and I think that's all I've ever seen.