The Ten Commandments

That sort of thing certainly should not have a place in a modern democracy.

The fact that you have to actively choose to affirm rather than swear on the bible only reinforces what I said about the dominating ideology. You shouldn't have to single yourself out as "different then the rest" when in court just because you belong to another religion or simply just don't believe religion belongs in the judicial system. What signals are that sending to the jury?

If a bible must be present in the courtroom, which is absurd in the first place since it contradicts the whole idea of freedom of religion, then people should have to actively choose to swear on that instead of the other way around. The best thing though would of course to exclude religion totally from the room where more than anywhere else decisions should be made impartially and based on objectivity.

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The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

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They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.

Of course lawyers use rhetoric to sway juries (that's rather their job)...but they could make the same speech whether that monument was there or not and probably have the same effect. I seriously doubt being able to add the words "outside this courtroom" will have any profound effect.The signal that, Christian or not, most people are more hesitant to lie if they've sworn on a book that many consider so sacred. Let's not forget that the idea is to get them to tell the truth, and I've no doubt that both believers and staunch Atheists alike would feel more comfortable being dishonest if not for such an oath. Its purpose is rather pragmatic.Two things:

1 - It does not "contradict" the freedom of religion. The Bible being present in a courtroom does not prevent anyone from believing whatever they wish. Let's give the wise men who founded this country a tad more credit than that.

2 - The personal religion of the judge or jury is more likely to effect the outcome of a case than the fact that someone is sworn in on a Bible. Do you oppose Christian judges/jury members? How about race in trials where it comes into play? If the goal is to be as objective as possible, why stop at religion?

Good point with regard to believers, of whom the majority in this country are; not a good point with regard to atheists. I can't imagine a true atheist being less comfortable lying because she places her hand on a bible. I certainly wouldn't. My secular oath to tell the truth is enough, and no amount of swearing on a book which I believe to be a work of fiction will make any difference whatsoever.

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One of the biggest myths told is that being intelligent is the absence of the ability to do stupid things.

ALL of the above points are "good points" if you were living in an entirely Christian nation. However, that's not the case, and here are some of the problems:

Church and State:

-enfranchised Christianity, unrealistically woven into the current law practices of a country (i.e. is there a law that says God must be worshipped on sunday for example?) projects the wrong image. It suggests to people, for a start, that they should use a Christian framework of reference when making decisions as jurors. No matter what you say about the good sides of Christian-perspective, we've established that there are areas of its thinking that clash with the morals of many - and so should not be used in judgement of them.
-Overall, the State is not run by the Church, so what place has the Church in these affairs?

The Bible in Court:

-As Fire says, it makes no difference to atheists/agnostics/mystics etc if they swear on a bible or a cookery book. They might even be MORE likely to lie if they strongly oppose it (which i don't - just its application by people etc)
-Add to that: how must a Muslim, Sikh, Jew (if it's the New Testament) etc etc feel if they're forced to swear on a religious work they do not recognise? If their religion does not permit worship of other Gods (and i believe they do, as Christianity does), then it must be very demeaning for them to be forced to (when they are). It's very presence is also a clear signal that the said country "considers itself" christian (even if that's in no way true across the board)
-Christian jurors and judges may well feel endorsed by the bible's presence - hence the probs stated at the top. But Yoda, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE HAS SAID JURYS AND JUDGES CAN'T/SHOULDN'T BE ALL CHRISTIAN. That's an entirely different matter that you've plucked out of the air. Why try to extend opposition to Christianity/monotheistic-religions in one area to all areas? It doesn't help debate.

I'm afraid, on balance, you really can't accuse those opposing this notion of being less-objective than yourself. Sorry, but coz you can't see there's a problem here (or so you claim repeatedly), perhaps it's you who's not trying to look at all the angles?

:shrugging-smilie: (we need one of these - it's the only way i get any real upper-body exercise - shrugging all the time )

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Virtual Reality chatter on a movie site? Got endless amounts of it here. Reviews over here

=

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"I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" - Howard Beale

Sometimes he's a jackass, but other times he's ok. I wish he would stop smiling so much after he talks; it looks really, really goofy!

Who is he? A famous religious guy? The only ones we have in Britland are a crazy guy with a hook for a hand who got kicked out of a london mosque, and the new and shrewed chief bishop-style-character in the Church of England [owners of our echoey church collection] (he's a canny thinker - that's about all i know. Definitely don't know his title. Archbishop of Canterbury perhaps )

I think he is a very good and honorable man.

This is not the issue, and I also think it is incorrect. If people are telling the truth in court even though they don't want to it is because, in most cases, because they know it is a criminal act to lie in court. Not because there is a slight possiblity they will go to hell if they lie.

The real issue is that people who do not believe in the bible for various reasons are being forced to swear upon it. If they do not, in some cases they will be held in contempt and even if they are not, they are still risking to be viewed as outsiders and "weird" by the jury.

1 - I didn't say that either. It singles out "the others" from the christians and is therefore discriminating and works against all that is the purpose of freedom of religion. And I am absolutely sure that the wise men who founded your country were convinced that christianity was by far superiour to all other religions. Times changes. Those men were wise, but not that wise.

2 - If you put the Ten Commandments and force everyone to swear upon the bible, then the court is christian rather than non-religious. It is supposed to be non-religious. The point is that in theory we are all supposed to be equal before the court but if you are forced to emphasize that you are somewhat different even before the questioning has even started, then we are not equal in theory. And if we are not equal in theory it is a possibility that we are not equal in practice either. And don't you think it is kind of absurd for a muslim to swear on the bible? In all fairness, there should be a copy of the quran available but that is absurd too. Why not just lose the bible instead? That would be the only right thing to do in a country that is supposed to have freedom of religion. It is impossible to hide your race but your religion is your own personal business unless you choose it not to be.

He's about as far right as they go.

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You're not hopeless...

So who is he?

It's a politician name Alan Keyes. He ran in the primaries in 2000 but didn't get through. He went on an admirable platform of no income taxes, but overall most of his issue positions were not very intelligent. He doesn't seem like a bad guy, I haven't seen much from him lately, although, I haven't been watching much of the news.

Oh, I thought you said he is about as right as they come, or something like that. I was pretty when I read your other post.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...028758,00.html

Here are a few little snippets of facts and extrapolations (that I find flabbergasting, familiar and pertinent in equal measure)

Looks like the contitution has been under threat for a long long time. And, on the big picture, the contitutitons/sovereignty/independance of others around the world too.

A very interesting focal point this. And god, but aren't those defenders-of-the-stone block embarrassing to good christians?? That's how I'd feel if my belief-structure was aiding such fundamentalist thinking anyway.

Yoda,

I don't know if you care or not, but Mancow just called The Ten Commandments "the basis for all laws" this morning.

Does anyone see irony of this commandment and the importance we are placing on this hunk of stone in front of a courthouse...hmmm?

Well, what if he has a really nice ass? Yes Yoda, we liberals sometimes have a viceral sense of humor!

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I have been formatted to fit this screen.

r66-The member who always asks WHY?

I did… and for some reason, Elvis pops in my head every time I read that particular commandment…





Golgot… I wrote a response to your last post yesterday and then lost the darn thing… ... anyway, I did some checking on the Pew Poll and the Harris Poll…turns out they only polled 2000 people for the Pew Poll and around 15,000 for the Harris Poll…

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This country was founded on christian judeo principles. We swear on the bible in court to tell the truth... we enjoy those god given 'unalienable rights' and our constitution carries many references to god and christian principles. In part, those principles are what made this a great country.

If you remove the foundation, the rest of the building will fall.

I've been in the quoting mood lately, so here are some more:

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." - John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." - John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a Nation gone under." Ronald Reagan


"I believe that the next half century will determine if we will advance the cause of Christian civilization or revert to the horrors of brutal paganism." Theodore Roosevelt

"But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious Hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own." - President Abraham Lincoln

"All must admit that the reception of the teachings of Christ results in the purest patriotism, in the most scrupulous fidelity to public trust, and in the best type of citizenship." - President Grover Cleveland

"The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other." - Alexis de Tocqueville

"History fails to record a single precedent in which nations subject to moral decay have not passed into political and economic decline." - General Douglas MacArthur

Faith is a continuation of reason. William Adams

To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty... this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness. Albert Einstein