d@mn, 30 posts since i last checked!!
a lot going on here, lessee ... since so many people's comments refer to other comments, this might be out of order ... but hey, this is a pot of ideas so i hope that's ok. and, going from that, i've got a whoooole lot to say. prepare yourselves!
these are numbered for your reading pleasure cause I doubt you all want to read this at once, but, i had to catch up!!
1. quote, TWTCommish; "That said, I believe in God...Jesus Christ, specifically. "
you guys got to talking about religions, toward the end. don't want to offend Chris, but I mean, you know how contradictory your statement sounds, right? I've always been wary of how Christians believe God is Jesus cause it's too too similar to how Catholics believe God is Jesus AND Mary ... How can one believe X is Y? That's why they have two different names and two entirely definitions. Yet, somehow, they evolved to mean each other, or Y (Jesus) to equal the former (God), and the how and the sense of that, which I have perceived and which I get factually, is one that has no common sense to me. My family is Christian, my mother was once Catholic ... I've seen it all. I myself am Christian because I do believe that at some point in the history of the world a man named Jesus existed ... other than that, the buck stops there. I believe he's entirely separate from God. Related, but separate.
2. quote, TWTCommish: "I like to think of myself as a pretty logical person by nature - but sometimes I just can't see all around me created by chaos. Too many things work in such precision, and sometimes, so artistically, to be random. "
yup. "God is in the details."
3. quote, OG: "My point exactly! To me, god is just an easy way of explaining what you can't explain."
So's science. Pick one, or believe both. Because science may have the math and numbers, but recall that math is INVENTED. I've taken the math and i've dealt with the quantum physics people (not heavy duty but i have). and it's INVENTED. You know, in courses I've taken that break down something as simple as light, when you get down to the microscopic level, you get down to THEORY. Not even necessarily FACT. And here's a real live term we used to define things: "little packets." That's right. Nothing specific, no real terms. That term was used to refer to "little packets of light" travelling, which no one can grasp or seize. It's funny, people put so much weight in the factual side of science when it is really as theoretical and contradictory (think of all the opposing theorists and scientists out there) and grasping for the truth as religion.
Back to science. It did not have known rules and regulations and had to be 1) recreated if it already existed 2) invented to fit what we do know. In which case, who invented it first? Or did scientists just stumble upon a system to which there are keys and facts the depths and likes of which they are still plumbing and may never completely know and if they ever do figure it out, at that time we will have reached perfection/utopia.
Science may simply be part of the system by which God indeed has things rolling. If, indeed, he is perfect and made us in his image, he may be trying to evolve us toward something more worthy, and something more perfect than we are. Short of physically reaching his hand/will/whatever down upon us and manipulating our minds and selves, he has left us to do it on our own, in which case we DO have a hand in our own destiny (NOTE: PooPooMaster). He may manipulate the factors AROUND us, but he himself does not manipulate us actively.
Retroactively, perhaps. For those who are highly religious, that's them manipulating themselves in his honor, not him telling you subconsciously and in person to pray 5x a day or to not eat from an unblessed kitchen. Yet, there's some residual influence left behind in texts. I take this with a grain of salt and admit I have not read them all, and do not know the original versions or the names of the chapters. But, if his reasons make some sort of sense (don't eat pigs cause they are filthy animals) then fine, it makes sense, more power to those who don't eat pork.
Back to evolution here ... so, our destiny is unknown but to the best of our knowledge is just "do the best you can." Which is kind of like, we don't know why we're here but let's just imagine it's to become better than what we are. What we are in the grand scheme of things we don't know either but let's just stick to that for know cause there's a lot we don't know and to avoid further mistakes we might as well keep learning to avoid them and hope the point of our existence comes to light. I personally believe that point is perfection, complete knowledge, enlightenment, whatever, but that will have to happen for EVERYBODY, a world where all is known and we are perfect beings.
We can't gain this with help. We have to do it on our own, otherwise there is no point and we've learned nothing, we've had the easy way out. In the meantime, God is experimenting. He's running his own experiment but it's not for fun. Maybe it is, I don't presume to know his mind, but I imagine that he WANTS us to achieve perfection, but because he wants us to earn it, he chooses to do only certain manipulations of the world around us to give us chances to improve, and to leave it at that. The adversity and the joy and the sorrow around us is all to teach us, and we are all here to learn, in order to reach some point, which I think is perfection. It's the classic parent-child dynamic - we do this to our own children, do we not? You will become better than you are, and you will become a better version of yourself that I myself judge fit to be in the world and know is good. Usually that involves some self-image and ego problems, and in a way, God may be intending us to become better than him, who knows. But in the meantime, he wants us better than we are. What that is on his scale, who knows. Maybe he wants us equal. Probably impossible, but who knows. Maybe we will be equal in every way but just not omnipotent/omniscient.
3. quote PooPoomaster: "My problem is that I need proof. There is plenty of evidence in the science category that tells me we are here because of evolution."
Like i said, science proving evolution does not disprove God (or a similar being). God may indeed have created the world in such a way that there is a system, which we discover now as science, but in the end it all points toward the same thing. Whether we give HIM credit or not for it is up to each person.
4. quote Zephyrus: "That's just our human nature. We're too stupid to understand the universe we live in, so we tend to break everything down into tiny bite-sized chunks that we can understand. "
it's really funny, cause he meant this about making up gods. but, if you think of it, isn't this the exact same thing we do for science?? that IS science. little chunks we call "theories" and then test-run. and we do it all so we can make sense of the world.
5. quote, TWT Commish: "To me, saying God doesn't exist is an easy way of making up for sin. That's not meant as an insult, but I think it can work both ways - the human mind has a reason to make God up, or pretend He does not exist. "
As OG said, he is not denying that he sins. And, specifically, while saying God doesn't exist could be a way to avoid making up sin for some people, that's not necessarily the truth for all people and there are multiple reasons and multiple results for choosing not to believe in God. The main one, which we've already heard here is the most basic of all human internal law: I have no proof that he exists. Tied to that one is, I have to see it for myself. That's a double meaning there. WHen people say it, they mean visually, they want proof. They want to see someone come back to life before their eyes after being shot, or God walk out of the clouds, or whatever. But, in a way they may be also be saying exactly that - no amount of yapping from anybody else is going to make them believe. They will have to see FOR THEMSELVES. (that emphasis there is not pointing at anybody here, i'm stressing a point).
And, Christians are certainly not the only ones spending time during their day ruminating on the bad they've done. Atheists and agnostics can do it too. They may not think of it as "sin" (since they disregard the bible and the rules that make sins sins) but they can still see them as trespasses against others and the order of the world and this ties into what OG said. And this makes choosing not to believe in God just to avoid being punished highly unlikely. Everyone always says that and it's like they're just not cutting anybody any slack. (no offense, I'm just a tad frustrated that always seems to be the case). someone said that to me once and I'm not even without religion!
6. quote Zephyrus: "But what they sometimes fail to realise is the actual size of the universe, and by this alone, every random event has a small probability of happening, which in a universe of this size can become significant. "
But we don't know the size of the universe nor our size in terms of it. Science can yap all it wants but if there are multiple universes around us then we've got a limited knowledge base. science is only trying to make sense of what it knows in it's limited space range (earth/any universes/galaxies we know of) and cannot presume that at any given time it's found it all. say we're a house in a fenced-in yard. scientists are sniffing all over the yard and may think they've got it all figured out but there's still a little gate that leads out to the street, and the neighborhood, and the next street, and ... etc.
7. quote, TWTCommish: "Yes, something is bound to happen somewhere - but here? What are the odds that we're once of the very few planets out there this lucky?
Also, keep in mind, that if you believe in evolution, you have to believe in either billions upon billions of other humanoid races on other planets who have died out, or you have to believe in this earth being nearly TRILLIONS of years old, and that millions upon billions of other human-type figures, mutated and different from us, tried to survive, but didn't.
I just find that hard to believe. "
why? later in these posts i think you say that the bible never covers it. depends which bible you use, my friend. and which holy book, cause there are multiple ones. somewhere i read, and i can't remember specifically which version, in the English (non-Hebruw) bible, that God did indeed say something to the effect of, "You are not the only children I have created" or something like that. Or , You are not hte only children I have put on this world."
Now, when he said it, he might have meant world in an entirely nonspecific sense, in which case, the entire plane he is practicing his creating on may be the "world" he means, under which there are multiple universes and planets, within which one tiny thing called Earth exists.
And, having said we are not the only children he created ... and with my believe science is indeed completely the system by which he has created and developed us, that he has done the same with others. I do believe there are other beings out there. Somewhere. Maybe it's just one other planet with humans exactly like us. Maybe it's 15 other planets with humanoids. Maybe it's 5 gazillion with beings with no discernible or recognizable appearance (light, water, spirit, who knows) or maybe they look like dolphins and whales. But i do believe their out there.
The other thing is humans have a penchant for having no basis to believe in outside things because they have not known them or seen them, and the only sure thing is believing in self-existence because "I think therefore I am" and you see others like you ... So the habit is to have so much faith in oneself/the human race that you can carry none whatsoever for anything beyond you. The human ego is selfish that way. It can't conceive there's anyone better or different (thus, the clash of races and the destructive nature of humans through their evolution still visible in our "civilized" societies today) and when we do encounter those things, we are angry, jealous, or scared. Confused of course, but we don't like what we see.
Thus the intense fear and fascination with the "other", who is not the "self". We refuse to believe in an "other" until we see one or enough other people (a majority) tells us they exist. Because the current # of people in the world who believe in "alien" life is not the majority, the rest of the world dismisses us (for yes, i'm one) as x-philes and sci fi fanatics and people with fanciful imaginations. And that will remain the way it is until we encounter others different from ourselves.
8. PooPooMaster: "Who can honestly say that for at least a moment...you had your doubts that God exists?"
of course. that's a natural part of life because the majority in the world has religion. it's as common as brushing your teeth and wondering if you really have to, or doubting the authority of your parents. we all doubt socially learned things at some point. the point as social beings is to learn for yourself why it's a socially practiced and common thing. which is why if you are born into a religion you will always have to face yourself at some point. i do not believe there is anyone born on earth into a religion who does not ask themselves at some point if they have natural faith or practice only what they are told; and/or if they really believe the religion they practice.
we have all apparently done that ourselves too, cause that's why we're here discussing and we have so many views.
9. Zephyrus: "Nah, I don't think it was likely that they were just dropped in to start the Human race...actually, there are different ways of interpreting the Genesis chapter of the Bible, which would view the "day" as a symbolic period, and which doesn't contradict evolution."
I agree that the bible, as in all things, is open to interpretation in many ways. and, the point of language and translation - a KEY factor that has ramifications for all those who practice a religion based off of a book. short of God himself having burned his thoughts into the page to never be altered or changed in any way and to reflect forever and immutably exactly what he said, we will never have the exact meaning, we will never know exactly what he meant or why for everything, and the fluid status that gives to religious books (to me) gives fluid meaning to what facets of religion come from it.
thus, the fact that God may not have even meant a "day" the way we think a day goes. and there are entire BOOKS filled with thousands of words that someone other than God chose to put there to represent what he said - or supposedly said. THe original Hebrew ... the different tomes ... the different English and Latin versions ... and then, the Koran ... think of it. That is a LOT of room for error. I'm not saying there's no truth to them now. Just that I think it's likely there are a lot of mistakes. But, that doesn't mean you still can't read them and believe in most/all/some of what they say.
10. TWTCommish: " The Bible is open to interpretation in many ways, but I'd have to say that isn't one of them. "
Why should this one passage not be open to interpretation and others are? I'm sorry, I know I seem to harping on you a lot Chris, but it's not you and I don't mean to disparage your thoughts. I totally repect them and I know where you're coming from and it's not like it doesn't make sense or that you don't have a reason to believe what you believe. I just disagree.
Ok, back to the quote - one part of the bible can't be any less fluid (in my opinion) than any other. we don't know what's fact and what isn't, what was wrongly translated, wrongly transcribed, and which chapter it was. None of this was saved on disk with spell-check and utter attention to exact translation. And translation in itself is an arrogant thing because if a person who speaks an entirely different language seeks to write the foreign words of a person speaking to them, there is no way in (you know what
that you are gonna get it right. No way. You'll get it mostly right, or kinda right, or sorta right. But 1) you'll lose the writing if it's been aged, if the handwriting is bad, if someone misspelled or whoever wrote it made mistakes 2) you'll lose the speech cause cognitive recognition between languages works differently. The best you can get is an approximation, a near-hit and therefore, a lot of room for error.
11. OG: "Also if Adam and eve are to be the representations of humans....Please give me a date in history when they appeared..and what followed..the Sumarians? Egyptians>? and where do they relate to the dinosaur bones... ?
I can tell you why Adam and Eve do not fit into the equation, and its rather simple. During the time when Adam and Eve were thought of, when the bible was created, Dinosaurs, Homo Habilus, Neandrathal man, Cro-Magnon man, Homo Erectus, and all the others were not known at the time. There was no way that information could have been known, which is why Creationism offers no explaination for it. "
ok, archaeological evidence ... who knows when the heck they were made. i'm thinking after the dinosaurs dude. the other thing, and help me on this, my knowledge of the bible is fuzzy, but in genesis, adam and eve are in some unknown paradise. that paradise does not have to be earth. they could have been in some location unreachable to us (dimension/another planet) and when kicked out they landed on earth. or, when kicked out, they travelled until they found earth. and, we don't know the state of the universe when God made it. it may have been like atlantis and disappeared from earth (rather than being on earth, or being earth itself). not knowing the state of the universe (only knowing the state of earth, as God (we believe) describes it), it could have all been one plane in the middle of which a gated eden sat, and when he kicked the kids out the entire relation of things changed. eden could also have been some pretty island in the sky that flew away or evaporated and left the bad children behind and went off to cruise the cosmos. who knows.
now, remains. the remains of human beings have to be in a location that can preserve them for us to find them. the soil, the air, or whatever will allow this. so who's not to say the happy couple just didn't disintegrate, finally? or that they're there, just so many layers down below it'll take centuries to find them and because they could be anywhere it's highly unlikely we'll ever find them anyway?
ok, and just because no one who wrote the bible knew of the reality of evolution does not mean they are incapable of co-existing. so what if creationism can't offer the dates and facts to coincide with things like dinosaur bones? there are plenty of scientific texts out there with theories we use today that had no notion of things we know now - does that disprove them? no, it just limits their scope. so, the bible was worried about things like progeny and religion and life lessons and such, not about when exactly on the carbon dating timeline adam and eve were created. i'm sure adam and eve fit in there somewhere. either they existed before the dinosaurs or after, but i mean, come on, does when really matter? i mean, it'd be nice to know and it'd be a fascinating discovery and would probably make all the religious people even more self-righteous cause now they have proof they're not crazy, but it's not terribly important. those whom it matters to most are those who want/need visual/factual proof, which i've discussed already, and in the end, hey, i'm sorry. i can't SEE science and in fact only see actions and reactions, but I believe it exists. why not do the same with some greater system that uses science and which can be temporarily named "God"?
12. mormons: i actually went to high school where there were a few, and the interesting thing was they dressed entirely like everybody else. nothing sexy or revealing, and nothing terribly confinind. none of the suits. like regular people. the few were actually a family (unless there were others I didn't know of) and their son was our senior class president, and he was in our speech and drama club (an actor) and did everything along with everybody else and never tried to "spread the word." then, we all graduated, and i heard the guy went off to do his 2 year thing (they all do it, i can't remember what it's called) and i think that's where they travel door to door and stuff in the US. but, i think he chose to do it a different way and is back in south korea (where we went to high school) out in the countryside and living with the monks. he's still mormon. i don't quite get what he's doing up there (learning from them or trying to convert the local populace) and i didn't want to be rude and ask.
whew!!! thanks for reading!!
Closed Thread
