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Oh come on, the entire world is shocked at the crimes of Russian soldiers in Ukraine, but you felt the need to be a contrarian.
I can understand a need to be a contrarian and believe it rhetorically useful in some cases, but here I see a thread which, if it wasn’t designed to turn into Russia-bashing, is now safely that. And this, as I think has been noted, doesn’t really help Ukraine or even affect Russia: it’s just that, a group of people bashing a country, its people and its cultural experiences while never having lived there or studied it. I keep checking in here from time to time to see if anything beyond that would materialise; and whilst I have no issue with the OP, it’s very interesting how the focus is shifting to horrible evil Russia from Ukraine.

Also most (if not all) soldiers in all of the world’s wars commit crimes. This is an unfortunate reality of warfare and what it does to the human psyche. I remember you didn’t react kindly to my posting about Russian soldiers being tortured by Ukrainians. Whoever is in the wrong, that’s still a war crime on my planet?

Freedom of speech ends where hurting another person begins. We cannot show tolerance for intolerance.
And there you are, my friend, in a rhetorical quagmire. The above is about as good a piece of evidence that “tolerance” is really a myth as any. As with the Will Smith/any recent free speech drama, you don’t know why “another person” might be hurt. For all I know, maybe the mysterious and nefarious “Russian trolls” are hurt by your random anti-Russian quips. That’s where your freedom of speech ends, I guess?

This is a rhetorical distraction often used by Russian trolls to take everybody's eyes from what really matters:

1. Russia attacked a sovereign country.
2. Russia is raping, torturing, and murdering civilians…

…If you don't think Russians are brainwashed on average, just try telling one that the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were once friends and had signed the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact that described how Poland will be divided between these two countries. Tell them that the Soviet Union attacked Poland from the East on June the 17th 1939 only 16 days after Germany attacked from the West. If you tell them all that and they say "you are right" then you have been lucky. Because my experience is totally different.
Of course Russians are totally and utterly brainwashed. And no, they are obviously not winning the war.

Do you? We can start exchanging ad hominem retorts if you want. But I don't think it would contribute to this thread as a whole. If anything, it'd only derail it and force Yoda to close it.
I have studied it, yes. At postgraduate level (not that I think that makes it objective). Not in Russia, obviously, so we get that out of the way. As for the latter, well, many a less incendiary thread have been closed for less. I’m never for shutting down discussion, but there’s no discussion here really.

There is you/some others spurting out truth claims about Russia because most people won’t contradict you/get involved. I mean, it might be easier to change the subject of the thread to “**** Russia!” and what more can be said?

We saw that happen in Poland during the Second World War, and unfortunately, little has changed. I heard many stories from my grandma and dozens of other people's grandmas. Russians would steal toilets and women's underwear, rape and torture women that were still children as well as older women, saw off their breasts, etc. They'd dig up raw potatoes from the fields. They'd steal everything they could and set fire to whatever was left. This is happening again, on a smaller scale, yes, but maybe only because this war is a smaller war, too.
Yes, okay, and every single nation on Earth engaged in a war has done the same thing. And please, by all means, call me “a Russian troll” (I never quite discovered what they are, but alas), but this isn’t a form of deflection, or whatever you call it, this is factually true. Every nation on Earth that’s been at war has committed war crimes. War is not ethical business. So for me to say to you that Russia in that way is in no way remarkable isn’t “trolling”.

When she was still alive, my grandma would tell me a lot of stories about the war. She said that when the Germans entered her village, they have killed a few people there, and they took a few to the Treblinka Extermination Camp, including her father. But she somehow spoke flatteringly about the Germans anyway. She said that she was sitting somewhere hidden in a ditch and a German saw her, walked over, looked, and walked on. And besides, the Germans gave chocolate to children, etc. Yes, she admitted Germans too murdered people and some of them were scary monsters, but the main difference was that Germans did everything in a very routine and orderly way.
My grandmother was Polish. She had to hide in a well during the war for weeks on end, no light, no water. Once she got out and until the day she died, she had a phobia of Germans, even when she lived in London and walked through Marylebone, she would flinch away from German speech. Your reference to your grandmother is a problem less because it’s ad hominem but mainly because it is inherently emotional and impossible to approach analytically.

Everyone’s personal experience shapes their perception and attitudes, and to use that in all seriousness to claim “Russians are evil”/“worse than Germans” is darkly comical. I have a Ukrainian housekeeper who once insulted me suggesting it’s high time I have kids as “time’s running out” (I was in my early twenties). I guess I should say all Ukrainians are tactless ****s who can’t mind their own business.

Imagine how evil must've been the Russians who entered my grandma's village that she, whose father was taken to Treblinka by the Germans and died there, still thought that Russians were worse.
“Evil” is not a word that can be quantified. There’s a whole discipline called “ponerology” that studies evil. “Evil” is a way of othering something. But anyway, the fact that you actually in all seriousness refer to Russians, or any nationality, as “evil” makes me feel very little hope about this exchange.

If accounts of survivors are not enough for you, you can look at the thing in a wider scope by googling "soviet war crimes" or something. And then googling "Bucha massacre" and reading what Russian troops are doing in Ukraine. The similarities are scary. The thing is, googling it may not be enough. You need to spend more time reading about all that.
You seem to be under the impression that I am denying Russian war crimes - no. Again, your broader point being what? “Russians are evil?” What are you, you personally, trying to achieve here? What is your objective? I sure as hell hope that isn’t regime change in Russia, as that means you really don’t even care about understanding the country you’re enjoying bashing so much. Seeing as Russians could never under the circumstances “take to the streets”, or whatever other idiotic term there is, and even so, given there is ample sociological research proving that “protest”/“taking to the streets” doesn’t work/accomplishes nothing (below):

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...t-work/360264/

There are definitely wars where one side has a huge moral advantage over the other and the war in Ukraine is such a conflict. If you compare these two things:
  • Ukrainians might've overestimated Russian losses, delibaretly or not.
  • Russians attacked an independent country. They raped, tortured, and murdered civilians in Bucha, Irpin, and other cities (I fear to think what is happening in Donbas).

You will see how inane your allegations sound.

I don't mind you saying that. It's a very good example of how most Russians and pro-Russian people react when they see what Russian troops are doing in Ukraine. Denial is one of the most basic defense mechanisms. And that refers to every nation. The thing is, most intelligent people accept the truth sooner or later. It's the uneducated who keep being stuck in their ignorance.
And again, I am in no way denying that Russians are murdering civilians/etc etc (although to me, honestly, as someone who partly works in public affairs/politics, it seems like a tiny drop in the ocean given what goes on in the world…. Oops, I guess I’m a Russian troll again). I actually tried to convert a denier last night and I agree, it’s tough. So yes, to get that out of the way, Russia is committing war crimes. I’m trying to grasp, I guess, what people expect “outrage” such as that in this thread to do about it. If anyone explains, in a neutral fashion, I’d be very interested.

What you don’t seem to be willing to grasp is that every nation on Earth that has been at war has committed war crimes of some sort. This isn’t anything special. We are paying attention to Ukraine because the victims are white, this isn’t because of anyone’s “trolling”, but because people tend to care more about those who look like them.

https://www.newswise.com/articles/ne...ieve-we-should

I mean, sure, Ukraine has “a huge moral advantage”, whatever that means, so do the Uyghurs in China and the Copts in Egypt. Did having a moral advantage ever help anyone? Even the Jews with a moral advantage during the Holocaust weren’t let into most countries until very late in the day.

What you also don’t seem to be willing to grasp is that online threads or even in-person church meets where people go round in a circle discussing how “evil” Russians are is just about the most counter-productive thing one could possibly come up with during an armed conflict. “Widespread condemnation” has never truly stopped anyone save for corporate entities like McDonald’s from doing anything. “Widespread condemnation” isn’t an action, it’s a non-event, it’s nothing.

Speaking of reading on Russian history or whatnot, do you know about the prophesy of Fátima and the consecration of Russia? Have a read about that. Russia has already been consecrated twice, so what, what has that done? Same here with the “widespread condemnation” and Russia-bashing threads.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consecration_of_Russia

This thread is by now nothing of use except random Russia-bashing. Y’all enjoy yourselves carrying on with that.

(I totally understand if I should be banned, whatever).



So would you also dismiss a rape victim's allegations towards the rapist because she's too close to the rapist and her perception is colored by dislike and resentment so typical to rape victims? Just applying your logic here.
I work in litigation and I’m not a fan of victim impact statements, I think they’re manipulative. Also I never said (this keeps coming up in so many discussions) that my thinking/any thinking is absolute and should be applied indiscriminately to different types of cases. But to attempt to answer your question, I don’t think a rape victim’s mother should give evidence in court to determine how long the rapist’ sentence should be, because yes, her response is rooted in feelings, not evidence or legal practice.

If the rape victim said, “I bet he’s never had consensual sex in his life and raped all his exes because he’s EVIL”, then yes, duh, I would strike that from the record. Equally, if we’re trying to examine the allegations to see whether or not it was consensual, then I would say we should try looking at some kind of video evidence, not just the victim’s words. We certainly can’t rely on the emotional response of the side that’s “morally in the right”. I’m sure you’ve seen 12 Angry Men (one of my favourite films).
WARNING: spoilers below
In short, in the film, the jury member who has the deciding vote wants subconsciously to convict a young boy because the juror himself has a poor relationship with his teenage son. And he admits his mistake in terms of his thinking being inappropriate in the court of law context.
That explores exactly that type of conundrum and shows that personal involvement/emotional responses, even if uncontrollable, are detrimental to the legal process and its objectivity.

In my opinion, it's exactly these countries that used to be under Soviet oppression that has first-hand knowledge of how Russians work. Experience is a great teacher. But then again, my opinions don't matter either as Finland is also Russia's neighbor, right?
Sure they do. It’s just that they carry exactly as much weight as those of the so-called “Russian trolls”, seeing as they are equally ideologically coloured.



Sorry if I'm rude but I'm right
it’s just that, a group of people bashing a country
If a country invades another country and kills civilians, it deserves to be bashed.

it’s very interesting how the focus is shifting to horrible evil Russia from Ukraine.
What do you mean by that? Could you rephrase?

Also most (if not all) soldiers in all of the world’s wars commit crimes.
This is a cop-out. If you kill several people, you are then persecuted for your crime. And saying "But... but... Ed Gein killed many people, too!" won't help you a bit. The thing is, nobody will persecute Russian war criminals. If anything, they will get medals for fighting Ukrainian "Nazis".

And there you are, my friend, in a rhetorical quagmire. The above is about as good a piece of evidence that “tolerance” is really a myth as any. As with the Will Smith/any recent free speech drama, you don’t know why “another person” might be hurt. For all I know, maybe the mysterious and nefarious “Russian trolls” are hurt by your random anti-Russian quips. That’s where your freedom of speech ends, I guess?
There is no need for sarcasm. From my experience, Russians always take it as a personal offense any time you say anything non-positive about Russia. You should not be hurt when somebody says your country did or is doing something wrong. This shows insecurity.

Besides, is asking to not tell outright lies about another nationality and not murdering them based on these lies too much?

And Russian trolls are by no means a mysterious group:
Of course Russians are totally and utterly brainwashed. And no, they are obviously not winning the war.
This, here, is a prime example of Poe's law. I have no idea if you're saying this sarcastically or agreeing with me!

There is you/some others spurting out truth claims about Russia because most people won’t contradict you/get involved
Most people won't contradict me because they agree with me. You are in the minority, I'm afraid.

I mean, it might be easier to change the subject of the thread to “**** Russia!” and what more can be said?
I explicitly underlined how what I say is not meant to incite hate on all Russians. But an authoritarian state waging an inhumane war on another state and oppressing the few of its own people who stand up to the crimes deserves criticism.

Yes, okay, and every single nation on Earth engaged in a war has done the same thing
Not to such extent, though. Not all of them, no. And you're still repeating the same old argument: "but others did that, too!". It just doesn't matter.

My grandmother was Polish. She had to hide in a well during the war for weeks on end, no light, no water. Once she got out and until the day she died, she had a phobia of Germans, even when she lived in London and walked through Marylebone, she would flinch away from German speech. Your reference to your grandmother is a problem less because it’s ad hominem but mainly because it is inherently emotional and impossible to approach analytically.
My reference did not mean to say that Germans weren't evil. It was meant to say that Russians were comparably evil. But while today's Germany wears penitential attire and continues to apologize for Nazi crimes, Russia not only denies an apology but oftentimes outright denies that any crimes happened, to begin with.

Everyone’s personal experience shapes their perception and attitudes, and to use that in all seriousness to claim “Russians are evil”/“worse than Germans” is darkly comical
I have already addressed this point before. But if you follow what you wrote ad verbatim, then you can never criticize anybody or anything because a collective experience is still built on a multitude of personal experiences. So you can use this pseudo-argument to actually say Ukraine has no right to criticize Russia because there was some ninety-year-old grandpa in a deep Siberian forest who has nothing to do with the war.

But your point is flawed, and the following example of using the same logic illustrates it very well:
1. Oskar Schindler saved many Jews!
2. Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi Party.
3. You have no right to criticize Nazis as a whole. Not every Nazi was evil!

l. I have a Ukrainian housekeeper who once insulted me suggesting it’s high time I have kids as “time’s running out” (I was in my early twenties). I guess I should say all Ukrainians are tactless ****s who can’t mind their own business.
Am I to understand the Ukrainian housekeeper raped, tortured, and murdered you, and then there was a similar Ukrainian housekeeper in every xth house in London? This is a bad example. We are not talking about just one person who did wrong. We are talking about many people who did wrong and some people who didn't do wrong. The fact there are good, humane, and wonderful people in Russia is undeniable. Unfortunately, the fact Russians committed numerous crimes during both the Second World War as well as the War in Ukraine is also undeniable.

“Evil” is not a word that can be quantified.
You absolutely can quantify evil. If you slap somebody's face, you hurt them, so that can be fairly seen as evil. But if you cut off somebody's hand and then use this hand to bash them to death, then that's evil so much greater than just slapping the person. But I admit that measuring evil gets harder the more evil is done by a particular individual or group. Is killing 500,000 people really that much worse than killing 499,999 people? Anyway, it's not really about how evil the Russians were during WW2. It's about the fact they were very evil, but they never apologized and the state never did anything to change the people's minds.

Anyway, your rhetorical games change nothing, really. Russians are committing evil war crimes in Ukraine at the moment. And these crimes remind me of crimes they committed in the past, including during the Second World War.

But anyway, the fact that you actually in all seriousness refer to Russians, or any nationality, as “evil” makes me feel very little hope about this exchange.
But I didn't. Not in the quoted block of text, anyway. Your emphasis skipped an important part of the sentence. The full sentence with a correct emphasis is:

Imagine how evil must've been the Russians who entered my grandma's village that she, whose father was taken to Treblinka by the Germans and died there, still thought that Russians were worse.
You seem to be under the impression that I am denying Russian war crimes - no.
Then why are you acting as if you were?

Again, your broader point being what? “Russians are evil?” What are you, you personally, trying to achieve here? What is your objective?
I could ask you the exact same questions, but... My broader point is multifold. Education is one - Captain Spaulding asked a question, so I answered it. But above all, I'm a user on a forum I like, so I'm posting in a thread I'm interested in. Just like you.

Seeing as Russians could never under the circumstances “take to the streets”, or whatever other idiotic term there is, and even so, given there is ample sociological research proving that “protest”/“taking to the streets” doesn’t work/accomplishes nothing (below)
At last we agree on something: There is no way Russians will take to the streets in a big number. Unless the flour to sawdust ratio in their bread approaches 50:50, that is. But your point that protests accomplish nothing is, oh irony, so wrong, that the very Ukrainian Revolution of Dignity proves you wrong.

Russia is committing war crimes. I’m trying to grasp, I guess, what people expect “outrage” such as that in this thread to do about it. If anyone explains, in a neutral fashion, I’d be very interested.
I don't think anybody expects that writing about it on the forum is going to change anything except for maybe clarifying the situation for those who do not know anything about the war. But chiefly, writing about the war is just a way of coping with it. Sure, you can write about it somewhere else, but for many MoFos, Movie Forums is their go-to place on the internet, so it's only natural they'd write about it. Besides, the thread is open, so we write in it.

What you don’t seem to be willing to grasp is that every nation on Earth has committed war crimes of some sort.
And what you don't seem to be willing to grasp is that it doesn't matter.

We are paying attention to Ukraine because the victims are white, this isn’t because of “trolling”, but because people tend to care more about those who look like them.
We are paying attention to Ukraine because to some of us, it's closer. Besides, we usually see Europe as a civilized place, more so than Asia or Africa. I'm not saying this isn't wrong, but this is how it mostly is. There wasn't such a big war in Europe since the Bosnian War. The War in Donbas has been raging since 2014, but it was mostly ignored. For many of us, this is the first big war nearby.

I mean, sure, Ukraine has “a huge moral advantage”, whatever that means, so do the Uyghurs in China and the Copts in Egypt. Did having a moral advantage ever help anyone? Even the Jews with a moral advantage during the Holocaust weren’t let into most countries until very late in the day.
I don't know what you are talking about or trying to achieve here. My quip about a huge moral advantage was a reply to your accusation that I don't see an issue with Ukrainians overestimating Russian losses. It was supposed to show that it's not really an immoral thing to do, all things considered. And yes, Ukraine's huge moral advantage actually gets them weapons and tanks from other countries. Because almost the entire world supports Ukraine. With the exception of pariahs and undemocratic countries like North Korea, China, Belarus, and Syria. Quite a company, eh? I'm not going to comment on the comparisons to Jews, but Poland alone has already taken 2.5 million Ukrainians since the beginning of the war.

What you also don’t seem to be willing to grasp is that online threads or even in-person church meets where people go round in a circle discussing how “evil” Russians are is just about the most counter-productive thing one could possibly come up with during an armed conflict.
So is spreading Russian propaganda. What's more, the latter is harmful, too.

Speaking of reading on Russian history or whatnot, do you know about the prophesy of Fátima and the consecration of Russia? Have a read about that. Russia has already been consecrated twice, so what, what has that done? Same here with the “widespread condemnation” and Russia-bashing threads.
I don't believe in prophecies and don't care to comment on that point.



But to attempt to answer your question, I don’t think a rape victim’s mother should give evidence in court to determine how long the rapist’ sentence should be, because yes, her response is rooted in feelings, not evidence or legal practice.
I don't think you're replying to what I asked. If being from a neighboring country (which, by the way, quite universally shifts opinions toward Russians in the same direction) makes one's opinions automatically unqualified due to being colored by past experiences is not, to me, the same as asking rape victim's mother about the sentence. It equals asking the victim to evaluate the rapist as a human being.

Even in your scenario, there's a ton of evidence about Russian behavior in the past and present (Stalin, the great ally of the West, killed more people than Hitler). The culture in there isn't our "enlightened" western culture (which isn't bad in its entirety). Putin (and many other Russians) dream of the new Soviet Union instead of a democratic and free nation. Lots of the mindset hasn't changed that much since the days of the Czars.
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