Should Women Priests be allowed?

The US government has no prejudice against immigrants (supposedly)..yet an immigrant can't ever become a president. So using your arguement one would say "IF there is no prejudice against immigrants, let them become presidents"

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Δύο άτομα. Μια μάχη. Κανένας συμβιβασμός.

Could be

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Health is the greatest gift, contentment the greatest wealth, faithfulness the best relationship.
Buddha

Ok, so : who's Nah,I don't think so? why can't you say who you are?
Silly! isn't it arguing over personal opinions. Now if I get a red mark is it a bad rep?

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Godfather ~~
Tessio: It's a Sicilian message. It means Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes.

Are Catholic Priests only allowed to converse with Catholics? And no, he has not been removed from the Church… nor is he wrong about this.

There is nothing suspicious about that site. It deals with a period in history known as the burning times with factual accounts of what happened and a list of names taken from court documents. Copy and paste is not an option - 1)it has been disabled on the site 2)there is too much information.

Pretty judgmental considering you said you couldn't even view the site…


Just for the record… you have no authority over me whatsoever so don't attempt to dictate what I can or cannot do in the future… but considering the fact you apparently need an official document from the Catholic Church in order to believe anything historical actually happened, I suggest you start with the Summis desiderantes and the Malleus Maleficarum.


No, I don't… but you seem to be basing your whole argument on the fact the edict does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church… so I ask you, where are all the edicts/Papal Bulls that have been issued by various Popes for two thousand years located in the Catechism?

Where is the Summis desiderantes issued by Pope Innocent VIII which allowed the Inquisition to hunt down, torture, and murder thousands of innocent people (the majority woman) over superstitious nonsense.

Where is the Inter Caetera issued by Pope Alexander VI that resulted in the slaughter of tens of millions of Native people?

Just to name two…


The church "as a whole" (meaning each and every Catholic) may not have said such nonsense about women, but the churches early leaders and teachers certainly did:

"A woman is an incomplete being, a misbegotten male." - Saint Thomas Aquinas - (considered by the Catholic church to be its greatest theologian)

"A woman is her husband's property." - Saint Thomas Aquinas

"Woman was made to be a help to man. But she was not fitted to be a help to man except in generation, because another man would prove a more effective help in anything else." - Saint Thomas Aquinas

"While the soul comes from God, the father supplies the formative power without which the female matter could not receive it. For this reason, a child should love his father more than his mother, since the father principle of his origin in a more excellent way than the mother. He is the active principle, while the mother is a passive and material principle." - Saint Thomas Aquinas

"And in fact this blood [menses] is so detestable and unclean that ... through contact with it, fruits do not produce, wine turns sour, plants die, trees lack fruit, the air darkens; if dogs eat [the blood], they are then made wild with madness." - Saint Isidore of Seville

"Once when the orders of canons of deaconesses were recognized, they had their own status at the altar. However, the defilement of the ministry by those menstruating expelled them from the divine and holy altar." - Balsamon

"Adam was deceived by Eve, and not Eve by Adam. The woman summoned him to sin; it is just that he takes on the guidance of her, lest he be ruined again by female recklessness." - Decretum Gratiani

"It is the natural order in humans that females serve males and children parents, since in this is justice that the lesser serve the greater." - Decretum Gratiani

"A woman was the effective cause of damnation since she was the origin of lying and Adam was deceived through her, and therefore she was not able to be the effective cause of salvation since Orders effects grace in another and thus salvation." - Guido de Baysio

"Orders is for the more perfect members of the church since it is given for the distribution of grace to another. A woman however is not a perfect member of the church, but a male is." - Guido de Baysio (professor of canon law)

"Men must correct and even punish females. A husband is able to judge a wife." - Glossa ordinaria

"It is stated here that if the wives of clerics should sin, they should not kill them, but guard them lest they have the opportunity of sinning in something else, weakening them by beatings and hunger, but not to death." - Glossa ordinaria

"What is lighter that smoke? A breeze. What is lighter than a breeze? The wind. What is lighter than the wind? A woman. What is lighter than a woman? Nothing." - Glossa ordinaria

"Women may not hold positions of authority in the church. Women are forbidden to teach men, lest they think they should be held in esteem." - Huguccio

"Women are inferior from the very moment of creation." - Huguccio

"A male and not a female is said to be the glory of God for three reasons. First, because God appeared more powerful and more glorious in the creation of males than of females, for the glory of God was manifested principally through man since God made him per se and from the slime of the earth against nature, but the female was made from the man. Second because man was made by God with nothing mediating, which is not the case for the female. Third, because a man principally glorifies God, that is with nothing mediating, but a female glorifies God through the mediation of a male since a male teaches and instructs the female for the glorification of God." - Huguccio (professor of canon law)

"The reason for the difference [between the roles of men and women] is on account of the fragility, imbecility and less natural constancy and discernment of women." - Canonist Aegidius de Bellamera citing the reason women could not hold civil and public offices.

"The female sex is easily misled, weak, and without much sense" - Epiphanius

Throughout history, the Catholic Church has played a major role in women being deprived of their right to be treated as equal human beings… and it continues today in the very fact that even though numerous women have stated they have been called to the Priesthood by God, the Church still refuses to allow them to become Priests… thereby sending a clear message that they still believe women to be inferior to men (i.e. God couldn't possibly have told a women to become a Priest).

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I dont mean to fuel the fire- but 'invincibly ignorant?'

I totally believe in a heaven that all can visit- if they play their cards right- but it seems to me that your saying, for instance- that if someone is born with the twisted idea that killing, rape, that sort of thing- if they do all they can to fullfil that ideal- to satisfy that construct- they are just as deserving for a spot in heaven?
Im just a little confused- not trying to act all into myself.

Who is this guy, one big misogynist

Invincible Ignorance

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

These concepts can also be seen in the following Scriptures:

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

John 9
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Romans 2
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

What’s your problem. Do you think every question I ask is directed in hostility towards you? I’m trying to get to the bottom of this “priest” fellow since there are some out there who are excommunicated yet still wear their vestments and spread untruths about the Church.

I’m suspicious about any website that is not Catholic who speak of Catholic issues. There are enough anti-catholic sites out there cause I have encountered many.

You really are a defensive one aren’t you. If I said something about your family would you just accept my word for it cause I heard it from someone else’s ear, or would you want me to back up with what I said with facts.

I base my argument on that it official church statement, not something a theologian may have erroniously said. They aren’t infallible. Councils and the Pope when said in a definitive act are.

Don’t worry, it’s not lost. But again, a Papal bull is not infallible and does not have to be based in Church doctrine.

The Church as a whole (meaning clear infallible doctrine constantly taught by the Church through the Councils or by an Infallible statement by the Pope. That’s where you’re problem begins. When I say Church, I mean the Definitive statements issued through Ecumenical Councils which are those to which the bishops, and others entitled to vote, are convoked from the whole world under the presidency of the pope or his legates, and the decrees of which, having received papal confirmation, bind all Christians. Not church as to what certain theologians believed etc. etc.

Council of Nicaea 1

"Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity" (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).
This is binding on members of the faith therefore dogma. Nothing degrading concerning women here.

And to say this papal document Summis desiderantes were responsible for the witch mania of the two succeeding centuries, is altogether illusory. Not only had an active campaign against most forms of sorcery already been going on for a long period, but in the matter of procedure, of punishments, of judges, etc., Innocent's Bull enacted nothing new. Its direct purport was simply to ratify the powers already conferred upon Henry Institoris and James Sprenger, inquisitors, to deal with persons of every class and with every form of crime (for example, with witchcraft as well as heresy), and it called upon the Bishop of Strasburg to lend the inquisitors all possible support.
Indirectly, however, by specifying the evil practices charged against the witches — for example their intercourse with incubi and succubi, their interference with the parturition of women and animals, the damage they did to cattle and the fruits of the earth, their power and malice in the infliction of pain and disease, the hindrance caused to men in their conjugal relations, and the witches' repudiation of the faith of their baptism — the pope must no doubt be considered to affirm the reality of these alleged phenomena. Abuse of this document continued as a tool to promote the continuation of the witch hunting even though it was a protestant inquisition.


Now as the quotes concerning St. Thomas. Watch your step. The Quotations from Thomas Aquinas are bogas. And I got this from a theologian who studied his works for 7 years. The others are probably mostly bogus, but even if they aren’t, the names attached to them (Huguccio, Guido, Gratian) are mostly canon law teachers at the University of Bologna in the 1200s. All of them quoted texts that they disagreed with in order to argue against them or to pose problems for students, so it is the context of the quotes that are lacking.. Anyways, not one of these peole you mentioned are "authoritive" for Catholic doctrine.

The Maleius Malforum was written by Krammer, an independant lunatic, and was DENOUNCED by the Pope, it was not a Papal Bull. Odd how people get confused, but the Witch Hunting Manual was discredited by the Pope and the majority of Bishops. It was used by hysterical mobs to add some credibility form member of the church even if his mental stability was questionable.
Even you’re quote: "And in fact this blood [menses] is so detestable and unclean that ... through contact with it, fruits do not produce, wine turns sour, plants die, trees lack fruit, the air darkens; if dogs eat [the blood], they are then made wild with madness." - Saint Isidore of Seville
The bracketed portions of the text do not actually appear in the real document. The text is referring to dietary acts, not to a woman’s menstration, and the Bible tells us not to drink blood.

Caitlyn, you are nothing but a feminist anti-catholic bigot. You play the protestant game of getting your info from illegitimate anti-catholic sources, bogus quotes, one liner quotes taking out of context or any other trick to play in your direction. I’m quite disgusted even talking to you about this anymore. You’ve got nothing to offer. I asked for official Chruch documents and you give me this crap. Let me repeat this. If one is to say what the Church thinks of an issue, it MUST be backed up with dogmatic doctrine and not fallible saints or theologians. I see your intent is only to repeat your erroneous view of how the Church looks down upon women.
Again, I will state this. If the Church which to you is run by ordinary men’s views then the constants teachings through the councils of the special Grace bestowed on the Virgin Mary shows this not to be so. I have now quoted form two official councils of why women are not to be priests and not one said the crap you spewed out. And my opinion of that priest of yours. He is just your imaginary little friend. Again, as far as you and I concerned on this subject, I will do as my theologian friend said to do. “Give up on this bigot. “ Those 5 words are wiser than all things you said put together. I am done on this issue as I don’t need to fuel more erroneous quotes from you.

Now stop that, Caitlyn is not feminist an anti-catholic or a bigot, that statement in its self, is not, a balanced description of woman, how would you know what sort of person she is from this one issue.

Also, how do you know that your theologian, knows what he is talking about and isn't bogus,

Wise woman has spoken, all bow down.

Cait is not a feminist anti-catholic bigot....or a bigot of any kind. Your remark is insulting and uncalled for.

And what are you suggesting by.."You play the protestant game"? That could be interpreted a few different ways.