Se7en

Alright guys let's have some serious discussion about this film. Anybody who has seen it and wishes to discuss it please read this post and post your own thoughts. It would be much appreciated.

Now my thoughts...It is certainly a very intelligently made thriller. It's a very twisted film and made me very disturbed upon watching it and it is undeniably very well acted, well directed, well written and edited and shot very well. I think that one of the best things about this film though is something that many people would not realize has the kind of an impact on film that it does and that is the lighting. The degree of lighting and at times the pure lack of it allows us to see certain things and to have certain things obscured from view. The dark nature of the scenes go very well with the dark nature of the film itself and contribute very well to the ambiance of the entire film. This film would not have been the same without the amazing cinematography and the lighting to enhance the overall nature of the film. The plot itself was interesting and thought provoking. We have a guy who for whatever reason believes that it is his mission to set an example that sin will not be tolerated and must not only be punished but purged from our society. A killer with a message.....that's interesting....a killer with as Sommerset says "more of a purpose"....to be sure it's twisted purpose but a didactic one nonetheless... I do have some questions though. First off we've established how that guy taking pictures was John Doe correct? If so what was the point of that whole sequence? To establish that he could later get people's information from the police as Sommerset said and Doe later revealed at the conclusion of the film? Also what is to happen to Detective Mills at the conclusion of the film? Under our judicial system what he did would consitute vigilante justice and could land him in jail for the rest of his life. Does he go to jail for murder, or what? And if so, isn't that the perfect little ending to the film and to Doe's plans? Isn't it interesting how Doe picks himself as exhibiting envy...couldn't he have found someone else? And does he really believe that he has a duty to perform...a God given or whatever type of duty and that when he finally realizes that he himself I guess is no better in his eyes than those who he has saw fit to kill is that why he finally decides to end his life using Mills as his instrument? Did he know that this is what he would do all along? That he was envy and that he would use other people's weaknesses in this case a penchant for vengeance...really I'm not too sure I wouldn't have done exactly the same thing if I was in Mill's position but see that's another story entirely...did he know when he was plotting this out that he was envy? And would kill himself? Or was that a revelation later? What is to happen to Sommerset? What does "I'll be around" mean? Is he NOT to retire from the force? Or is he still going to retire? And if so doesn't that beautifully reinforce the whole nihilistic element...that whole cynicism that is so prevalent in his character? You have to wonder what was it that made him retire from the force? And he clearly sympathizes with Mills asking for him to be given everything that he needs? Right? And what was the whole purpose of Jon Doe shooting at Mills and Sommerset...that whole sequence and not trying to hit them just shooting above them...was that just to taunt them or what? Did he WANT them to find him.....was that all part of the game?

The scene in the car where Jon Doe says something like think about the life that I have allowed you to live reminded me very much of In the Line of Fire which is also a quite good thriller and one that I must admit I enjoyed more than Se7en. It's not as dark or disturbing but I'd say it's one of the best thrillers I've ever seen. But just because I enjoyed it more doesn't make it a better film...Se7en is probably artistically and stylistically a better film...but that's another subject. Both however are quite good and definitely classics of the thriller genre. But Se7en is ultimately a deeper film.

Strangely enough while watching the film I found two interesting things out about myself. First off I found myself not ALL that disturbed by the events and gruesome detailings of the killings which scares me a bit as it seems as if I've been desensitized. To not feel utter horror and shock at the gruesome nature of those scenes...is that not strange? I suppose you can say that I can separate film from reality but still that's strange. I don't exactly like that feeling.

Secondarily I think that my two favorite scenes in the film would be the whole bit with Sommerset and Mills where we see how cynical and nihilistic he is where he says it's easier to beat a child than raise him and says that apathy is a kind of solution. I think that was one of the film's most powerful scenes.

In addition I found the speech in the car with Jon Doe haunting and very powerful but scary because for many of the people I would have to agree that they weren't pure innocents. A guy who makes his living off of keeping murderers and rapists off the street in my mind is not a purely innocent party. Of course I didn't sympathize with Jon Doe's actions but the thing that scared me and that was so haunting is that perhaps there is a little of Jon Doe in us all. Finding myself even slightly trying to rationalize or thinking about his arguments which were tenuous at best was a little bit scary to me. People who live to satisfy their own urges at times at the expense of everybody else are not really purely innocent as they too are part of the problem. But don't misunderstand me here I don't in any way agree with Jon Doe's actions and of course I know that he is a psycho. A very intelligent psycho but a psycho nevertheless. I just find it strange that in some way I connected with the motivations of the killer even slightly. Maybe that's why the film is so disturbing to me and maybe for us all. Is it perhaps a possibility one of the main points of making the film was to make us all think about it? Think about how we would react...and what we think about Jon Doe's cryptic messsage?

I think maybe this film would benefit from repeat viewings...am I correct? Does it get better and clearer and more enjoyable with each viewing?

And I wonder...Did anybody else take a step back and say wait a minute this Jon Doe guy is of course a psycho but the lawyer guy who satisfies his lavish lifestyle by keeping rapists and murderers off the street and the woman who sells herself and makes money off of committing sexual acts...and the criminal who raped a minor and then had his lawyer the very same lawyer who Jon Doe murdered for gluttony get off....are these people truly innocent? Are people whose sole purpose is to satisfy their own desires in society truly innocent? Isn't that what is really wrong with our society in the first place? At the one hand we have the apathy that Sommerset is talking about how people don't have a ******* care in the wolrd and how as long as it doesn't affect THEM then they just go on their merry way and on the other hand we have people who don't care about anybody else whose sole purpose in life is to better themselves at the expense of the lives of those others in society? Isn't that apathy and those kinds of people exactly the people in society who bring us all down? Isn't it because of those kinds of people that a woman has to yell FIRE when she is being beaten and raped rather than yell HELP! because fire gives a sense of urgency to the individual where if that "fire" is not extinguished than it could pose a danger to his own safety? The feeling of I better help or that could be me? I could be the one yelling FIRE ..and what if that fire reaches to my home? Are these people truly innocents? Truly they are not beneficial to society, are they? And so why do they exist? Aren't they part of the problem? It all makes me think about how all of those people stood and watched from their safe dwellings watched Kitty Genovese being savagely assaulted and stabbed to death while not even one of them even picked up the ******* phone to call for help? Not one!!!!! Sure you can call it diffusion of responsibility but hell..not even one? That kind of apathy...isn't that coupled with those people Jon Doe is talking about that satisfy their own primal urges and desire exactly the kinds of people that are what is wrong with our society?

Have no fear I'm not going to go out and devise ways to murder people whose sole purpose is to satiate their own selfish whims and who are ruled by apetite using this Jon Doe guy as a sort of inspiration don't misunderstand me but I did find myself thinking about the message that he was trying to impart or perhaps that the director was trying to make us think about....maybe that's a scary thing. But I don't agree with Doe as I said because I don't place sins such as gluttony at the same level as greed. The guy who eats and eats and eats I don't place him at the same level as the guy who makes his living off of getting people that should be in jail off of the streets...I don't....so his argument, if it wasn't already before, is very flawed. But maybe the fact that I would probably do the very same thing in Mill's position does point to their being a little of Jon Doe in us all.....after all, who wouldn't? When being confronted with those types of situations?

And the fact that Sommerset figures it all out so quickly....that that epiphany comes and the realization that this is all part of the game....that was interesting...and that Doe in fact lied as there wasn't really two dead bodies...there was one...there was one but he lied and said there were two and haha hahah ha as I type I think how clever it was that what he said was really true...if you DON'T...if you DON'T go along with my plan than you'll never find the other bodies...that was at least partially true...the little sick bastard knew that Mills would kill him..perhaps he had been studying him...perhaps he just knew from the temperament...but he knew...he knew and he knew that Mills desire to "finish it" would be his own downfall as well...without a guy like Mills to toy with he never would have been able to finish his plan...at least not in the way that he EXPECTED to...and hoped for...that's interesting...his whole plan was contingent upon other people....it was all part of his plan...

I would also welcome any discussion of the film itself...why people like it? Favorite scenes? What impact it made on you? Why people didn't like it? What it achieved? What it failed in doing? What's so great and different about it that you Holden place it as your top film of that year? What makes it a great film?

Any discussion at all about it is to be welcomed as I think a film like this becomes greater appreciated and understood when it is talked about and mulled over for awhile.

I think this is perhaps Morgan Freeman's best acting to date. Well, this and Unforgiven are definitely his top performances. But it really is a very understated performance. He uses very few words, expresses very few emotions. He's a very complex man whose been hurt in some way whose very existence and occupation leads him to the nihilism and cynicism that he tries to pass on to young Mills. What made him that way? Or is it my misinterpretation but I found him very nihilistic? Why did he stay on then if he knew he couldn't make a difference? He never wanted to get involved in the first place I know but why did he stay on? I think it would have been interesting to see a film just about Detective Sommerset...tracing through his years on the force...the cases he saw...the ones that got away...how over the years he hardened became more cynical until he finally decided the hell with it I'm getting out...and is that truly WHY he decides to leave the force? Or was there something else going on?

Let's see if I know these Seven deadly sins now: sloth, greed, gluttony, pride, envy, wrath, sloth....yep I've got them now...

Alright on the two Disc DVD set they have an alternate ending and deleted scenes....I've watched them all but they also have quite a few commentaries...I've never actually sat through one of those commentaries all the way through...is it worth it? Should I sit through it? What I've always wondered about is how can you just sit through 2 hours of these guys babbling away at each scene in the film where you can't I mean how can you even watch the film? Or hear the film? Doesn't it all get droned out by the commentary? Is it worth watching? Should I sit down and give it a shot? The DVD's are very extensive...for those that have them what would you guys recommend that I see/watch/explore on them? Alright I thank you for reading and reflecting upon this and hopefully the majority of you who have seen the film and liked it or disliked it will respond.

I'm sorry for the disjointed nature and the stream of consciousness I guess type of feeling that it has but if I were to sit this down and make everything grammatically correct and think intently on it I think it would lose a lot of its impact....I hope that at least there are some intelligent things that I've said in here...that we'll be able to explore and analyze the film and get some answers to some of these questions...but if possible I would really like to actually discuss this film...and again does it benefit from repeat viewings? Or is it more of a one time deal? I know some films you see once and then you know it's just not the same when you see it again..is that what this is? Or does it benefit each time from another viewing?

Alright guys let's have some serious discussion about this film. Anybody who has seen it and wishes to discuss it please read this post and post your own thoughts. It would be much appreciated.

Now my thoughts...It is certainly a very intelligently made thriller. It's a very twisted film and made me very disturbed upon watching it and it is undeniably very well acted, well directed, well written and edited and shot very well. I think that one of the best things about this film though is something that many people would not realize has the kind of an impact on film that it does and that is the lighting. The degree of lighting and at times the pure lack of it allows us to see certain things and to have certain things obscured from view. The dark nature of the scenes go very well with the dark nature of the film itself and contribute very well to the ambiance of the entire film. This film would not have been the same without the amazing cinematography and the lighting to enhance the overall nature of the film. The plot itself was interesting and thought provoking. We have a guy who for whatever reason believes that it is his mission to set an example that sin will not be tolerated and must not only be punished but purged from our society. A killer with a message.....that's interesting....a killer with as Sommerset says "more of a purpose"....to be sure it's twisted purpose but a didactic one nonetheless... I do have some questions though. First off we've established how that guy taking pictures was John Doe correct? If so what was the point of that whole sequence? To establish that he could later get people's information from the police as Sommerset said and Doe later revealed at the conclusion of the film? Also what is to happen to Detective Mills at the conclusion of the film? Under our judicial system what he did would consitute vigilante justice and could land him in jail for the rest of his life. Does he go to jail for murder, or what? And if so, isn't that the perfect little ending to the film and to Doe's plans? Isn't it interesting how Doe picks himself as exhibiting envy...couldn't he have found someone else? And does he really believe that he has a duty to perform...a God given or whatever type of duty and that when he finally realizes that he himself I guess is no better in his eyes than those who he has saw fit to kill is that why he finally decides to end his life using Mills as his instrument? Did he know that this is what he would do all along? That he was envy and that he would use other people's weaknesses in this case a penchant for vengeance...really I'm not too sure I wouldn't have done exactly the same thing if I was in Mill's position but see that's another story entirely...did he know when he was plotting this out that he was envy? And would kill himself? Or was that a revelation later? What is to happen to Sommerset? What does "I'll be around" mean? Is he NOT to retire from the force? Or is he still going to retire? And if so doesn't that beautifully reinforce the whole nihilistic element...that whole cynicism that is so prevalent in his character? You have to wonder what was it that made him retire from the force? And he clearly sympathizes with Mills asking for him to be given everything that he needs? Right? And what was the whole purpose of Jon Doe shooting at Mills and Sommerset...that whole sequence and not trying to hit them just shooting above them...was that just to taunt them or what? Did he WANT them to find him.....was that all part of the game?

The scene in the car where Jon Doe says something like think about the life that I have allowed you to live reminded me very much of In the Line of Fire which is also a quite good thriller and one that I must admit I enjoyed more than Se7en. It's not as dark or disturbing but I'd say it's one of the best thrillers I've ever seen. But just because I enjoyed it more doesn't make it a better film...Se7en is probably artistically and stylistically a better film...but that's another subject. Both however are quite good and definitely classics of the thriller genre. But Se7en is ultimately a deeper film.

Strangely enough while watching the film I found two interesting things out about myself. First off I found myself not ALL that disturbed by the events and gruesome detailings of the killings which scares me a bit as it seems as if I've been desensitized. To not feel utter horror and shock at the gruesome nature of those scenes...is that not strange? I suppose you can say that I can separate film from reality but still that's strange. I don't exactly like that feeling.

Secondarily I think that my two favorite scenes in the film would be the whole bit with Sommerset and Mills where we see how cynical and nihilistic he is where he says it's easier to beat a child than raise him and says that apathy is a kind of solution. I think that was one of the film's most powerful scenes.

In addition I found the speech in the car with Jon Doe haunting and very powerful but scary because for many of the people I would have to agree that they weren't pure innocents. A guy who makes his living off of keeping murderers and rapists off the street in my mind is not a purely innocent party. Of course I didn't sympathize with Jon Doe's actions but the thing that scared me and that was so haunting is that perhaps there is a little of Jon Doe in us all. Finding myself even slightly trying to rationalize or thinking about his arguments which were tenuous at best was a little bit scary to me. People who live to satisfy their own urges at times at the expense of everybody else are not really purely innocent as they too are part of the problem. But don't misunderstand me here I don't in any way agree with Jon Doe's actions and of course I know that he is a psycho. A very intelligent psycho but a psycho nevertheless. I just find it strange that in some way I connected with the motivations of the killer even slightly. Maybe that's why the film is so disturbing to me and maybe for us all. Is it perhaps a possibility one of the main points of making the film was to make us all think about it? Think about how we would react...and what we think about Jon Doe's cryptic messsage?

I think maybe this film would benefit from repeat viewings...am I correct? Does it get better and clearer and more enjoyable with each viewing?

And I wonder...Did anybody else take a step back and say wait a minute this Jon Doe guy is of course a psycho but the lawyer guy who satisfies his lavish lifestyle by keeping rapists and murderers off the street and the woman who sells herself and makes money off of committing sexual acts...and the criminal who raped a minor and then had his lawyer the very same lawyer who Jon Doe murdered for gluttony get off....are these people truly innocent? Are people whose sole purpose is to satisfy their own desires in society truly innocent? Isn't that what is really wrong with our society in the first place? At the one hand we have the apathy that Sommerset is talking about how people don't have a ******* care in the wolrd and how as long as it doesn't affect THEM then they just go on their merry way and on the other hand we have people who don't care about anybody else whose sole purpose in life is to better themselves at the expense of the lives of those others in society? Isn't that apathy and those kinds of people exactly the people in society who bring us all down? Isn't it because of those kinds of people that a woman has to yell FIRE when she is being beaten and raped rather than yell HELP! because fire gives a sense of urgency to the individual where if that "fire" is not extinguished than it could pose a danger to his own safety? The feeling of I better help or that could be me? I could be the one yelling FIRE ..and what if that fire reaches to my home? Are these people truly innocents? Truly they are not beneficial to society, are they? And so why do they exist? Aren't they part of the problem? It all makes me think about how all of those people stood and watched from their safe dwellings watched Kitty Genovese being savagely assaulted and stabbed to death while not even one of them even picked up the ******* phone to call for help? Not one!!!!! Sure you can call it diffusion of responsibility but hell..not even one? That kind of apathy...isn't that coupled with those people Jon Doe is talking about that satisfy their own primal urges and desire exactly the kinds of people that are what is wrong with our society?

Have no fear I'm not going to go out and devise ways to murder people whose sole purpose is to satiate their own selfish whims and who are ruled by apetite using this Jon Doe guy as a sort of inspiration don't misunderstand me but I did find myself thinking about the message that he was trying to impart or perhaps that the director was trying to make us think about....maybe that's a scary thing. But I don't agree with Doe as I said because I don't place sins such as gluttony at the same level as greed. The guy who eats and eats and eats I don't place him at the same level as the guy who makes his living off of getting people that should be in jail off of the streets...I don't....so his argument, if it wasn't already before, is very flawed. But maybe the fact that I would probably do the very same thing in Mill's position does point to their being a little of Jon Doe in us all.....after all, who wouldn't? When being confronted with those types of situations?

And the fact that Sommerset figures it all out so quickly....that that epiphany comes and the realization that this is all part of the game....that was interesting...and that Doe in fact lied as there wasn't really two dead bodies...there was one...there was one but he lied and said there were two and haha hahah ha as I type I think how clever it was that what he said was really true...if you DON'T...if you DON'T go along with my plan than you'll never find the other bodies...that was at least partially true...the little sick bastard knew that Mills would kill him..perhaps he had been studying him...perhaps he just knew from the temperament...but he knew...he knew and he knew that Mills desire to "finish it" would be his own downfall as well...without a guy like Mills to toy with he never would have been able to finish his plan...at least not in the way that he EXPECTED to...and hoped for...that's interesting...his whole plan was contingent upon other people....it was all part of his plan...

I would also welcome any discussion of the film itself...why people like it? Favorite scenes? What impact it made on you? Why people didn't like it? What it achieved? What it failed in doing? What's so great and different about it that you Holden place it as your top film of that year? What makes it a great film?

Any discussion at all about it is to be welcomed as I think a film like this becomes greater appreciated and understood when it is talked about and mulled over for awhile.

I think this is perhaps Morgan Freeman's best acting to date. Well, this and Unforgiven are definitely his top performances. But it really is a very understated performance. He uses very few words, expresses very few emotions. He's a very complex man whose been hurt in some way whose very existence and occupation leads him to the nihilism and cynicism that he tries to pass on to young Mills. What made him that way? Or is it my misinterpretation but I found him very nihilistic? Why did he stay on then if he knew he couldn't make a difference? He never wanted to get involved in the first place I know but why did he stay on? I think it would have been interesting to see a film just about Detective Sommerset...tracing through his years on the force...the cases he saw...the ones that got away...how over the years he hardened became more cynical until he finally decided the hell with it I'm getting out...and is that truly WHY he decides to leave the force? Or was there something else going on?

Let's see if I know these Seven deadly sins now: sloth, greed, gluttony, pride, envy, wrath, sloth....yep I've got them now...

Alright on the two Disc DVD set they have an alternate ending and deleted scenes....I've watched them all but they also have quite a few commentaries...I've never actually sat through one of those commentaries all the way through...is it worth it? Should I sit through it? What I've always wondered about is how can you just sit through 2 hours of these guys babbling away at each scene in the film where you can't I mean how can you even watch the film? Or hear the film? Doesn't it all get droned out by the commentary? Is it worth watching? Should I sit down and give it a shot? The DVD's are very extensive...for those that have them what would you guys recommend that I see/watch/explore on them? Alright I thank you for reading and reflecting upon this and hopefully the majority of you who have seen the film and liked it or disliked it will respond.

I'm sorry for the disjointed nature and the stream of consciousness I guess type of feeling that it has but if I were to sit this down and make everything grammatically correct and think intently on it I think it would lose a lot of its impact....I hope that at least there are some intelligent things that I've said in here...that we'll be able to explore and analyze the film and get some answers to some of these questions...but if possible I would really like to actually discuss this film...and again does it benefit from repeat viewings? Or is it more of a one time deal? I know some films you see once and then you know it's just not the same when you see it again..is that what this is? Or does it benefit each time from another viewing?

When they take John Doe out to get the last two bodies, the area they go to isn't something you would see in the northern part of the country. You don't see dead grass and all that, that's something you find in the southern part of the country.

When they take John Doe out to get the last two bodies, the area they go to isn't something you would see in the northern part of the country. You don't see dead grass and all that, that's something you find in the southern part of the country.