UKRAINE

Tools    





My company is suddenly selling a crazy amount of vodka from Ukraine. I teased my bosses that they were taking advantage of mass suffering, but every little bit helps.



"How tall is King Kong ?"
I'm more ill at ease with the profit that the armament industry makes through the weapons that have to be sent to help Ukraine (and those, of course, that also get richer by the minute on Russia's side - I don't even exclude some little modern Zaharoffs rubbing their hands while playing both sides).

Speaking of which, I find the polish MIGs fiasco infuriating. The West is already providing weapons of all kinds, but planes are out of the question because they'd have to be flown over there instead of rolled ? Casus belli because they can't find cardboards and pink ribbons large enough to make it legit ? I know "diplomacy" is a war of bad faith, but the cause-and-effect here seems ridiculous. So much hinging on protocol.
__________________
Get working on your custom lists, people !



I'm more ill at ease with the profit that the armament industry makes through the weapons that have to be sent to help Ukraine (and those, of course, that also get richer by the minute on Russia's side - I don't even exclude some little modern Zaharoffs rubbing their hands while playing both sides).

Speaking of which, I find the polish MIGs fiasco infuriating. The West is already providing weapons of all kinds, but planes are out of the question because they'd have to be flown over there instead of rolled ? Casus belli because they can't find cardboards and pink ribbons large enough to make it legit ? I know "diplomacy" is a war of bad faith, but the cause-and-effect here seems ridiculous. So much hinging on protocol.
Some speculation says we shouldn't worry about triggering Putin because we've already triggered him in dozens of ways, yet he hasn't responded to any other major powers.

As you point out - what's the big difference in supplying tanks or planes? And what are Putin's "red lines" that would cause him to go "nuclear"? Tanks he's okay with, but planes would mean Armageddon?

Some view these nebulous standards from Russia as game playing - and thus feel we should call Putin's bluff. Still, other's say the stakes are too high.



Sorry if I'm rude but I'm right
Planes are primarily thought of as offensive weapons. Plus, they would have to take off from an airfield situated in another country, which means it would be easier to accuse the country the planes took off from for actually waging offensive war against Russia. It wouldn't matter the pilots were Ukrainian.

Stingers and other weapons for infantry are simply given to Ukraine. They are transported across the border but are picked up and used only on the Ukrainian side.

There's a significant difference.

It's hard to transport so many planes on land. It's easy to spot these planes, and Russians can simply bomb them. It wouldn't make sense to lose most of them before they even got used.



"How tall is King Kong ?"
There's a significant difference.
That's a bit where I disagree. It's an insignificant difference that is blown out of proportion because of a bad faithed troll armed with nukes who can play on words at will.

As far as I know, the West isn't providing tanks to Ukraine. If they did, would it be okay because they travel by road ? Would it require a change of drivers at the frontier ? The West is providing D-30s howitzers to Ukraine, is it okay because they are not self-propelled therefore transported-and-picked-up ? Would a self-propelled howitzer crossing the frontier be an act of war ? Because that would make it more "offensive" than machine guns, whereas it was less when it was towed ?

Wherever that line, it is absurd. There's certainly some available -and ridiculous- gymnastics to transfer planes while keeping within these lines (hey, make them take off on a border crossing point's highway, but make sure the wheel leaves the ground at the right spot because 2 centimetres too soon makes is a national assault), which, again, would be a puerile play on classifications and mental categories (it counts - no it doesn't - it does too), in order to satisfy a madman's arbitrary interpretations while still openly opposing him.

Really, this is all just embarrassing, hypocritical, absurdist and cowardly. And people die of these wordplays.



Sorry if I'm rude but I'm right
That's a bit where I disagree. It's an insignificant difference that is blown out of proportion because of a bad faithed troll armed with nukes who can play on words at will.
Well, if Poland allowed these jets to take off from Polish airfields, Russia would have a good reason to call Poland an aggressor and declare war on Poland. And NATO would have a good reason to not come to Poland's help and retreat all their troops stationing in Poland to Germany. NATO's Article 5 is a defensive pact, so if NATO agreed that Poland was an aggressor, Poland would be left alone to fight Russia along with Ukraine, which would inevitably lead to the country's destruction.

Poland had a different idea: Let's transport the MiG-29 jets to the American base in Germany, and swap them for F-16 while we're at it, ergo let the nuclear power America handle the matter. Russia would be much more afraid to declare war on the power that the US is. All of a sudden, however, Americans lost their enthusiasm and called this untenable.

The US and UK openly said it's OK for Poland to give Ukraine their jets, but they will be doing it at their own risk. Even if NATO would come to Poland's help in such a scenario, that would escalate the conflict and make NATO join the war, which they try to avoid like fire.

The biggest f*ck up here was that talks about handling over jets should have been clandestine. But somebody done goofed and now everybody knows about it, so my guess is NATO countries are now trying to create one big clusterf*ck ballyhoo around the entire matter to make people confused. Russia will get confused, too, and then other countries may use the turmoil to give some help to Ukraine (jets or other) under the hood.



Re: Criticizing the one-sidedness of media

It's clear who is the aggressor in this war. Criticizing the one-sidedness of media makes it harder to know whether the person who does that does it in good faith or is merely a shill. Once again, widely criticizing one side helps the other side. Yes, the media is one-sided in this conflict, but there are at least two reasons for that:
  • More info about casualties of one side than casualties of the other side helps boost and lower morale of the first and second sides, respectively. Official kill counts are either exaggerated or underestimated to either boost morale or try and hide the true incompetence of the army
  • Spreading propaganda helps the information war both countries are waging at the moment. Proliferating propaganda of the side you support helps this side, even if only by boosting the morale of its army.

The propaganda of exaggeration is not nearly as heinous as the propaganda of clandestine silencing.
Just read this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/03/03/telegram-russian-war-dead-ukraine-pows/

There’s also this, can’t find a non-Apple News link just now: Ukraine’s treatment of prisoners of war raises questions

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/09/ukraine-russia-prisoners-pows/

The best thing being, this has apparently been the case for years (the below is from 2015):

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/20...deo-war-crimes

The way I see it, there’s been a fair share of silencing, clandestine or not, of Ukrainians doing this/abusing human rights (yes, it’s less serious than murdering civilians, but still).

The one-sidedness of the media matters because during a war both sides will stoop as low as needed, and to exonerate one side but not the other will breed resentment and, more importantly, let third parties/outside actors eg China or whatnot draw their own conclusions on how “fair” and “balanced” and “objective” the so-called West is. This is less about the lynching of Black people point and more about the fact that Ukrainians (or probably any community in a war-like situation) have also been fighting dirty long before this.

The one-sidedness of the media that continues to emphasise Russian losses and minimise those of Ukraine, among other things, makes it appear as though Ukraine/its people are somehow objectively “better”/“more worthy” than the Russian side, and narratives such as below and many others the media is conveniently ignoring is hiding that fact from the less discerning consumer.

This is where the “lynching” argument obviously comes in, and I’m not saying that Ukraine abusing human rights excuses Russia’s doing so, but I do think it’s the media’s job to highlight all these instances equally and shed equal light on them, showing no preference. Seeing as, as it is, the western media much prefers spreading the images of Ukrainian ladies welcoming a Russian soldier with “bread and salt” and letting him call his mum, not so much this POW stuff.

So what was that about clandestine silencing?



I'm closing this for a day again. EDIT: gonna reopen MondayTuesday.

Pretty sure the only way this thread is going to be able to stay open is if it's to discuss the general facts on the ground. If used to litigate media coverage there's almost no chance it's not going to devolve into something ugly.



I'm re-opening this now.

I would very much like anyone thinking about participating to make sure they've read this post, however. Nothing we say here will change or even improve this event as it unfolds. We are following history together, not making it. So it is simply irrational to take any anger about it (however justified) and transfer it onto any exchange here. There are also, I will remind everyone, quite literally a million other places to talk about this, most of them more suited to the task.

I would very much like not to have to close this thread (permanently the next time, I expect), but I absolutely will if the discussion keeps veering into personally-directed anger, sarcasm, or even just branching off into meta commentary about media coverage.



Sorry if I'm rude but I'm right
I give this thread a week.

Anyway, the number of Ukrainian refugees in Poland is approaching 2 million. This means that Poland now hosts one of the biggest refugee populations in the world. We're getting overwhelmed. Of course, we are never going to turn people away. Polish families started accepting Ukrainians into their homes. But we cannot improvise anymore. We need to set up relocation centers. Other countries could help, too. Looks like nobody's prepared for that surge of migrants coming from war-torn Ukraine.



You ready? You look ready.
Out of all the news reports I've heard I have tried to distance myself emotionally because I am pretty emotional as it is, but I listened to a report on NPR this morning about a family that sent their daughter west because they didn't want her to be buried alive if the shelter got hit. That tore me up.
__________________
"This is that human freedom, which all boast that they possess, and which consists solely in the fact, that men are conscious of their own desire, but are ignorant of the causes whereby that desire has been determined." -Baruch Spinoza



A system of cells interlinked
Out of all the news reports I've heard I have tried to distance myself emotionally because I am pretty emotional as it is, but I listened to a report on NPR this morning about a family that sent their daughter west because they didn't want her to be buried alive if the shelter got hit. That tore me up.
Yea, it's too much to take, really. I know it's crass on a certain level to just put my head in the sand, but I can only focus so much on current global events before it starts to wear me down, so I just turn it off and go about my day.
__________________
“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” ― Thomas Sowell



Sorry if I'm rude but I'm right
before it starts to wear me down
Understandable. Please take care of your mental health, give yourself a breath, take a break for a few days, if not a few weeks. Your happiness and well-being should come first. Even rescuers say that their safety comes first before they start saving others.



Video of an astonishing band from Kyiv. It isn't filled with bombs and death to illustrate a point, but does more than enough to put a human face to the people and culture that is under attack.






Ghouls, vampires, werewolves... let's party.
The End Times are coming and this could be it. Or maybe not. One thing is certain is that it will happen eventually. It's just a matter of when.


For people of faith,


"Forgive your enemies. Through you and the blood of the martyrs will come the conversion of Russia. Repent and love one another. The times are coming which have been foretold as being those in the end times. See the desolation which surrounds the world, the sins, the sloth, the genocide. Pray for Russia. Oppression and wars continue to occupy the minds and hearts of many people. Russia, despite everything, continues to deny my Son. Russia rejects real life and continues to live in darkness. If there is not a return of Christianity to Russia, there will be a third world war and the whole world faces ruin."

- From a 1987 apparition of the Virgin Mary in Hrushiv, Ukraine.





Much prayer is needed.



Understandable. Please take care of your mental health, give yourself a breath, take a break for a few days, if not a few weeks. Your happiness and well-being should come first. Even rescuers say that their safety comes first before they start saving others.
Really want to echo this.

I'll add to it, as well: a lot of people seem to feel an obligation to "keep up" with the news, as if it's some kind of ethical obligation. I don't think it is. Self-governing societies probably benefit from their citizens being moderately knowledgeable, but I think that relationship is tenuous and mixed, and I doubt compulsively doomscrolling things half a world away is at the optimal point in that curve.

I think it's particularly insidious because following these things closely (and arguing about them, which seems to correlate quite a bit) creates a false feeling of productivity, if not a false feeling of agency over a conflict we're pretty much just powerless observers of.

I think it's good for us as a community and good for us as individuals to maintain distance and perspective as to what our role our observation and discussion actually play here, and the degree to which our focus and intensity is sometimes just a form of coping.



A system of cells interlinked
I think it's particularly insidious because following these things closely (and arguing about them, which seems to correlate quite a bit) creates a false feeling of productivity, if not a false feeling of agency over a conflict we're pretty much just powerless observers of.
Excellent point.

For the record, I am fine.

Obviously, with a toddler in the picture, I do feel the weight of these things more than I used to, but for now, we are just doing our thing, having fun with the wee lass!

Stay safe out there, everyone.



One development to pay attention to is that three leaders of three NATO countries are headed to Kyiv.


Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki, Czech Prime Minister Petr Fiala, and Slovenian Prime Minister Janez Jansa said they will meet with Zelensky and his Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal in Kyiv on Tuesday

We're one stray bullet or bomb away from a Prime Minister of a NATO country being killed.



I don't watch the news. I don't have TV service and if I did it would just stress me. I do try and read a bit on the internet about the Ukraine war but finding current information with a search engine isn't always as easy and reliable as it should be...

So I have a question for anyone who has been keeping up on the latest developments: I'd like to know what the U.S. and the west is currently doing to help end the war in Ukraine? What actions are we taking right now and what is planned for the near future? I know about the economic sanctions and stinger missiles.

If you chose to answer please don't include opining. I just want to know what is currently being done and planned for the near future regarding the war in Ukraine. Thanks