Obama!!!

No, I don't think marijuana is dangerous. Never said I did. Certainly not as dangerous as alcohol can be when mis-used by some people. However, alcohol has a long, long history of being socially acceptable. They say Christ's first miracle was turning water to wine, effective providing Heavenly endorsement of alcohol consumption. I don't recall any accounts of him rolling a joint for somebody, however. I understand the Catholic and maybe other churches still use wine in their services (I was raised a Baptist, so all I got was grape juice).

Alcohol was around long before the USA was born and taxes on its manufacture was a source of income for this young republic, leading to one of the early challenges of federal authority thru Shay's rebellion. I'm sure marijuana was around then, too, and likely in use by someone, but its history is more vague and therefore it has no tradition in Anglo-American society.

Also, alcohol is acceptable as part of one's dining pleasure. There are some who put great store in knowing which wine goes with which course, and probably most people have enjoyed a burger and beer on a 4th of July cookout. But I've never heard anyone say, "I bet this would taste better with a hit of Aztec gold." Usually it's smoke first, eat later just anything you can find.

It has never been illegal to have or consume alcohol in this country; Prohibition prohibited only the sale of it. Even today it's illegal to sell alcohol without getting a stamp that shows federal taxes have been paid on the brew. There are still places where they make illegal moonshine and there are those who are willing to sell it to minors at an inflated price, but mostly the sale and distribution is tightly policed and limited. Most sales are through legitimate business that must obey certain rules. As I've said before, marijuana gets stepped down at each stop in the transport line with whatever they have at hand that looks anything like marijuana. It's illegal to posses, illegal to have, illegal to smoke.

Marijuana didn't use to be illegal in this country back when it was smoked mostly by young Mexican men. But then "reefers" made the cultural jump from Hispanics to the growing black urban population and gained the reputation--wrongly, I think--of driving "those people" wild. At any rate, it was in that period that laws were passed outlawing marijuana, with some pretty stiff penalties that would take blacks and hispanics caught in possession off the streets for a long, long time. In short, it was one of many means of controlling "colored" minorities. It became a "problem" in the 1960s when it made another cultural jump to the "white" suburbs.

For better or worse, marijuana has acquired the reputation of being a drug, something pedaled in back alleys. And I think that is part of MJ's attraction, the idea of doing something illegal, running a risk, thumbing your nose in society's face. I remember back when I used to smoke it, I often had the feeling I was the smartest SOB on the street, really putting something over on the rest of the world. But I've occasionally felt that way, too, when stone cold sober!

That said, I think legalizing marijuana would not solve the problem--not even if you sold it small quantities like a joint at a time and required that it be consumed only on the premises. If you let anyone buy a pound or more at a time, they'll take it home, cut it and resell it at a higher price to folks who don't want to take the time or be seen going into a marijuana outlet. I'm firmly convinced too that legalizing marijuana along the basis of legalizing the sale of booze would focus street sales of the weed solely on those who are too young to buy marijuana legally. The trouble with street dealers is that marijuana is an entry-level drug. "this is some good chit, kid, but if you really want to get high, let me lay some of this coke on you!" On the other hand, I've never gone into a liquior store for six-pack of beer and had the salesman try to get me to take a gallon of rum instead.

Plus the government supposedly is going to start putting pictures of stiffs and cancered lungs on cigarette packages. If they're working so hard to prevent kids and adults from smoking, are they going to be anxious to encourage them to smoke pot?

So for these and various other reasons, I don't think they're ever going to legalize marijuana or other drugs, at least not in my lifetime.

I've tried both and much prefer booze. I quit smoking cigarettes years ago so last time I had a joint, I coughed it all away. On the other hand, I can drink booze without immediately throwing up. And I've never burned a hole in my suit while consuming booze.

I think you and I earlier had a little tate-a-tate over the different way people see these things at a younger age vs. an older age. The biggest difference is when you have kids of your own--you're far less likely to speed down residential streets, you become more observant of school crossings, and you think to yourself what if your kid sees you going into a marijuana dispensary or smoking or drinking at home. It never works to say don't do what I'm doing.

So I hardly ever drank in front of my kids, and I would never do pot in front them (that was mostly in my Army days). Today they're all grown but I've got grandkids. Still, with just me and the wife around the house most evenings, I'll bet I haven't made a mixed drink for 6 months or more. I did drink some wine with Italian food one night.

So they could outlaw both pot and booze and it wouldn't bother me so much, except like I've been in Muslim countries where I couldn't get a drink and then I wanted one so bad! It was like when I get hungry for Mexican food everytime I go overseas. First thing I do when I get back is go to some Tex-Mex joint and load up. Then I know I'm really home.

Didn't hit the bar and drink myself silly when I got back from Saudi Arabia or Jordan, however. Soon as I was someplace I could get a drink, I no longer wanted it.

You know, Dexter, in this discussion and your comparison of marijuana to booze, you remind me a whole lot of my youngest son Mark who has a well developed--maybe even overdeveloped--sense of right and wrong. Like you, he wants a just world where things and people are always treated on their merits. And like I keep telling him, this is not a just world--chit happens, and we have to live with it. So the legalization of booze and the illegalization of marijuana may not be fair, but it's the real world, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

But the discussion is about what would, in fact, be fair, not whether or not the law will reflect it.

You and I butted heads in a similar way in a discussion about polygamy and same-sex marriage, where I made the case that a certain piece of rhetoric about same-sex marriage should logically include polygamy, and you dismissed this on the grounds that polygamy would never be allowed, anyway. But back then, as now, the question of what will happen is different from the question of what should, and discussing what's fair, right, or logical, has inherent value even if it might not happen any time soon. This is already assuming that any of us can truly say with authority what will or will not take place, too.

I think we can assume that anyone over the age of, say, 12, has come to the realization that life isn't always fair. We can factor that into the discussion already. That doesn't invalidate discussions about what would be fair, or what ought to be. Indeed, seeing beyond what probably will be into what ought to be is probably where all real progress starts.

Let me put this in terms maybe you can apprecciate best, as you have chosen to invoke religion as a means of rationalization of a Government policy.

You've got to temper that "argument" with ruffy a bit though because he doesn't believe in any specific kind of God, especially one he can understand.

However, I will say that rufnek is quite a bit behind the times concerning the sale of marijuana in this country, at least out here in what he considers Crazy California. Marijuana is not a "back alley drug"; it's sold and exchanged on many streetcorners in plain sight. I also don't understand why ruf thinks that marijuana is constantly being "cut" as it's being passed down the selling chain. That is not the case and wouldn't even be possible unless it was in a doobie or being distributed by/to some amateur. It's also not the "dealers" who try to get users to "step up" in their drug use. It's usually their friends and peers.

OK... but not all illegal immigrants = violence and ignorance. so, what other reason is there for you to not want your family around them?

. . . a bus full of Mexicans on a California border looks like illegals . . .

judging

I remember many years back sitting at an EPA checkpoint being grilled about oranges and watching a bus full of what looked like illegals - yes a bus full of Mexicans on a California border looks like illegals. Not saying it was - but the way they were all ducking seemed suspicious. Anyway they were waved through and I had to give up a can of peaches - damn!!!

FTR - My grandmother on my father's side is Mexican - I do not want to be called a racist -I am pretty much a minority but I look white - so be it.

. . . the "Mexicans" were at "our" border long before "we" were.