A Question of Western Faith.

Since we've had a debate in direction towards that of Atheists, I'd like to bring up a question of my own directed at Theists. Western Monotheism, to be more direct.

Here is my question:

In Western Monotheism, (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), it is accepted that God has given us Free Will, yet we are Determined to face rapture. Explain the paradox.

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Imagine an eye unruled by man-made laws of perspective, an eye unprejudiced by compositional logic, an eye which does not respond to the name of everything but which must know each object encountered in life through an adventure of perception. How many colors are there in a field of grass to the crawling baby unaware of 'Green'?

-Stan Brakhage

Jews don't believe in a rapture. I don't know what muslims believe.

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It reminds me of a toilet paper on the trees
- Paula

According to the Tanakh:

Deuteronomy 4:29-39 (King James Version): But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy GOD, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul. When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God; ) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it? Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as the seas turn black and feel like mud, and all will know the wrath and atonement of their sins? Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him. Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he shewed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire. And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt; to drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day. Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Micah 4:1-5 (King James Version): But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it. For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

Isaiah 2:1-5 (King James Version): The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

God issues in a new world order.

You can take whatever verses you want out of the bible, Jews still don't believe in a rapture.

Monday, May 30, 2011

Do Jews Believe in the Rapture?



Dear Tanta Golda,
Recently there was a big hullabaloo about the Rapture, and the end of the world (and universe!) for the rest of us on October 21st. My anniversary is October 25th, should I still buy my beloved a gift?
Repentant but Perplexed

My Darling Perplexed,
What a mishegos! As you may have figured out, Jews do not believe in any event like the rapture. Nor do we believe in any concept of Armageddon - the self-destruction of the world. So in brief - go ahead and get your precious a love token!

Now for some clarification. The Torah does refer to aharit hayamim (end of days). This shouldn’t be confused with the Christian concept of the end of everything. In Jewish theology the end of days means the end of the old world order and the transformation to one of universal peace, united under one G-d. It will be the time of the Mashiach.

Once again we have some distinct differences between Jewish and Christian belief. Messiah means “savior”, whereas Mashiach means “anointed”, a term given to someone in Biblical times who attained a position of nobility or greatness. Jews believe that the Mashiach will be a charismatic human leader - not divine, physically descended from the line of King David, who will rule and unite the people of Israel, and usher in an age of global universal peace. He will lead the people through example, inspiring others to strive for “good”, so that people from all cultures and nations will unite to perfect the entire world.

You may find it surprising to learn that it is said (by those who say such things) that in every generation there is a person who potentially could be the Mashiach, and that when Hashem determines the time is right, he will imbue him with the powers necessary to rally the people. So my kinder you may already know him!

Tanta Golda would advise that we treat everyone we meet as if they could be the Mashiach, perhaps if we begin treating everyone nicely we will help bring about the world to come! Much love - TG


I was brought up in the faith and I know there is no rapture for Jews.

Is this not what I just stated? *Facepalm*

Time for me to define terms: Rapture is not a universal rapture. It is different for the three different religions. If we're going to argue all the semantics here, Will, I'll be glad to play that little game with you and take the high road. Just say the word.

"End of days," does not mean the end of the world, that is what a rapture means for Christians, it means world peace, new enlightenment, whatever. We are all still here, we are all just getting along.

Yes, okay. I've stated that. You're stating it, and believe it or not, you're agreeing with me. Can you do me the favor or answering my original question now? Or is there anything else you would like to belabor the point on? Maybe we should stress rapture means end of days in this context? But we're doing that already and that's making things easy on ourselves! Maybe we should stress each rapture/end of days is different for each Monotheistic religion... oh right, we've done that too! And it's still too easy! Anything to miss the point here and we'll hit the nail on the head by random chance one of these days! (Yoda, I don't know how you do it).

I don't see how everyone being happy campers in a future utopia is against free will.

I think it is a load of crap, but that wasn't your question.

Funny as hell. FYI

No... its not.

Okay, according to Monotheism, we are given the Free Will to do good or evil.
Yet we are destined, Determined, to face rapture.
Explain the paradox.

What is your definition of rapture, Judgment Day?

Jews ain't got one.

A paradigm shift of sorts that threatens humanity

It's all so confusing, there just HAS to be somethin to it.

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#31 on SC's Top 100 Mofos list!!

What I believe is the day will come when some people will get ice cream and the others will be attacked by bees.

I'm not understanding why you believe it is a paradox to have both free will and to have to face G-d one day with what we have done. Are you saying that, because we have been given free will, we should be able to choose wether or not we WANT to face G-d?

I think I defined this, HERE, HERE, and HERE. If I had a God, I would ask Him to give me the strength to bear with you. However, since I don't, you're worth being ignored for now.

Maybe I'm not phrasing the question correctly, because this is not what I'm trying to illustrate. According to Monotheists, God says we are given Free Will to do both good and evil. However, for these same Monotheists, God's return unto man is destined, Determined. So what is the correct answer? Free Will? Then why is it destined to rapture? Determinism? Then why give us the Free Will to do good or evil?

Because G-d wants us to love Him because we want to love Him. He doesn't want us to be forced into it, and so whether we choose to love Him or not, believe in Him or not, it is for us to decide during our lives.

I don't believe that destiny and choice are separate from each other. Our choices shape our destiny. Perhaps, also being Jewish, I am not understanding the meaning of rapture. I thought that was when G-d takes those who have been his most faithful and pure and expedites them to heaven? It's therefore not everyone who will make it through the rapture, but just those who have taken their free will and chosen to be G-dlike. The rest of us get left behind for judgement day, where it is all of our destinies, whether raptured or judged, to be faced with the consequences of our actions and choices.

But again, maybe I don't understand. And btw Will, it's not that Jews don't believe in or have a heaven or hell, but that Jews don't define heaven or a hell as a place, but as a closeness or distance to G-d. Therefore, our free will more directly affects our destinies, wherein if you choose to be close to G-d during your life, you will be close to Him and bask in His warmth in your AFTERlife. If you choose to shun Him in your life, He will not be a prescence in your afterlife. I see free will and destiny as synonymous. They simply have a cause and effect relationship, like all things.

None of it matters cos it's all bollocks anyway. That's why there are paradoxes and things in old books which the modern version of said religion no longer believes, as it doesn't fit/work with the current view of society. That's why there's different branches of the same religions. Sooner or later a group decides that, while they still believe, they're not really comfortable with one or more parts of the text/doctrine and so they start another branch, which'll be pretty much the same as the one they left, but with the bit they wanted taken out/enforced more amended.

There is no God, but don't worry about it, He/She/Its not needed anymore.

Jews still don't haver any knd of rapture by your definition because they don't say God is returning. They say a mesiah is coming who is his messenger, but he is human and not his son or anything like that. And then everyone will willingly be happy and believe the same stuff and God, but they do so willingly so it doesn't conflict with free wiill. Is it likely absolutely everyone would suddenly see the light and believe the same thing? No, but belieivng it will happen doesn't contradict free will.

You can quote biblical verses all you want, but what you see there isn't what Jews see.

Good thread for the Thinking Man.