Golden Compass (Anti God flick released at Christmas, bad taste?)

You've just put into words what I've been unable to up to this point. It's sneaky. Now that I've heard that the film is shying away from the premise (no matter the motivation, Hollywood or not) it rings all the hollower to me.

Yeah, OG- makes a salient point about the anti-religious sentiment. It's entirely possible this will become a moot point in regards to the movies, though given what happens later in the series, it's hard to imagine how it could be stripped out. I'm mostly just talking about the books themselves, though, even though the movie's release is the reason it's being talked about so much.

There are atheist parents that do a pretty good job of raising their children without giving them a religious "perspective"...most of those kids also turn out to be respectable human beings...

I think coercion would be the more appropriate term. I don't think there's a child out there who wouldn't rather spend their Sunday morning sleeping in or playing PS3...

What are you so worried about anyway? It's a few books, how does that stack up to years of brainwashing? If the job was done properly they should dismiss "subversive" ideas as blasphemies without too much thought....

I'm not sure how we'd measure whether or not "most" turn out one way or another. Regardless, virtually all parents attempt to imbue their children with some set of ideals, be they religious, moral, or both. It's an eminently reasonable thing, and if you are an atheist, there isn't much basis for preferring arbitrary moral values to arbitrary religious beliefs.

And they'd probably rather do those things than go to school, too. But I don't think any of us are railing against the "coercive" public education systems. Kids want all sorts of things which are wrong for them, which is why most people acknowledge that it's sensible for parents to attempt to instill them with values. The fact that this can be abused doesn't imply that the absolute opposite path -- not instilling them with anything firm -- is the answer. To the contrary, I think it can be disasterous.

I don't think I've said anything to indicate that I'm especially worried. This is a largely abstract discussion, at least on my end. I'm just a bit perturbed that people are trying to deny that the books do, in fact, have an agenda. I love the exchange of ideas, but not when one side isn't being upfront about what's being exchanged.

As for them being "a few books" -- The Bible is made up of a "few books." The Communist Manifesto is a glorified pamphlet. I don't think His Dark Materials is on par with either, of course, but it's not always obvious how influencial some things can be.

I don't think playing games or sleeping on one of their days off is a serious "wrong," so I'm not quite seeing your point.


Oh, I haven't said at all that they don't have an agenda. In fact the agenda is moot, and I would say the same thing about Narnia. Besides, if a kid's "religion" is "true and obvious" it shouldn't matter that they're watching/reading the opposing viewpoint. Because they know what they think is "right," unless they're already on shaky ground. In which case, the what was really "true" wasn't. At least, that's my opinion from my own experience.

__________________
"This is that human freedom, which all boast that they possess, and which consists solely in the fact, that men are conscious of their own desire, but are ignorant of the causes whereby that desire has been determined." -Baruch Spinoza

Show of hands. Has anyone here read the His Dark Materials trilogy? Has anyone bothered to read the three, short, young-adult pieces of fiction that have already garnered 5 pages of discussion?

Pull author quotes all you want; read the damned things. There is nothing at all subversive about the methods of storytelling or, as the word gets beat around like a pinata, some sort of indoctrination. Actually read all three of the things you are "discussing" and realize that Pullman is nothing more than a hype man, overselling some agenda he himself feels his books have. And this is coming from a fan of the story of the books!

There is nothing whatsoever subversive about them. No trickery. No hidden amorality. No play this tape backwards and kill your family. Pullman is not that good of an author.

Yes, His Dark Materials blatantly rallies against organized religion. Check the key word, please: blatantly. The first book - the very book this thread is dedicated to and the only book in production - has nothing atheistic in it, unless you think fantasy Ice Bears honestly go against your God. The second and third books are where any agenda can be found, and believe me it will be found. A 10 year old will find it right quick regardless of how smart they are. It. Is. Obvious.

The books aren't even directly against God. The books are against the men and women who perpetuate terrible things in the name of God. Matter 'o obvious fact, the children in the books end up finding God in everything on earth and, most importantly, inside themselves.

As far as I can tell, the only wrong Phillip Pullman did was over hype his agenda, an agenda that does not translate 100% to the books no one here seems to have either read or comprehended, as a means of hawking books.

It clearly backfired.

__________________
Horror's Not Dead
Latest Movie Review(s): Too lazy to keep this up to date. New reviews every week.

I have to confess, I'm not sure if I understood the last sentence, are you saying that atheists shouldn't care if they're children are being indoctrinated with religious beliefs?


There is a reason why going to church isn't obligatory and going to school is, it being that the latter provides the children with skills they cannot do without in modern society.


You've just said that Pullman is being upfront about it. Freedom of ideas indeed... :/ Should they print a statement on the front of the book "children beware, I am trying to convince you there is no God in this book, read at your own peril!"? I'm not sure what else he can do about it...he has written books that offer a different outlook on the world...it's up to the children to decide if his views have any merit...this whole discussion seems a little condescending towards the target audience if you ask me.

And I've just read OG's response so I shall quietly bow out from spewing nonsense with no real insight into the subject matter. Goodnight kind sirs...

__________________
http://www.last.fm/user/diezelpower/

I just don't understand all this nitpicking about a movie. You go to a movie for enjoyment. Entertainment. All these people trying to turn down the film with all these anti crap , all the whats wrong with this and what is wrong with that and so forth. Just watch the picture and have a good time.

I'm probably too easy going when it comes to things like this, but to me, it would have either come out this summer, and they would have pushed to sale it on DVD at Christmas time, or it would be doing exactly what it is doing, and be in the theater at Christmas time. It's that almighty dollar, and I'd say that's all it is.
As far as this man, and his goal with his books . . . simply keep your children away from them, until they are old enough to make up their own minds, as far as what to believe in. My children can do whatever they like, as long as they don't hurt anyone. If you worry that much about what effects the movie may have on them, then keep them away from that as well, until they are older.

__________________

I've read them. And you're right. There's nothing subversive or tricky about them. There is nothing subtle about them.

Pullman wrote these books to be the anti-Narnia, and succeeded. Both are thinly veiled messages of their authors' respective beliefs within a children's fantasy setting. This is not to devalue the fantasy aspect, they are both intriguing worlds rather than mere propaganda. Personally, I prefer Narnia to HDM. But that is merely from a story point of view.

But you can't say Narnia is great and HDM is wrong from a moral point of view, they are the same thing. Those who dislike HDM for its supposed 'indoctrination' of children are just cross that it doesn't 'indoctrinate' kids with what they want them to be indoctrinated with. It is the view they disagree with, not the method of disguising views through fiction, that has been a strong weapon in the Christian armoury for centuries. There is nothing more 'sneaky' about what Pullman is doing than what the authors of the countless morality stories, tracts, stories sold in Christian bookshops and CS Lewis have been doing.

As for those people keeping their children away from the films...do they really think watching one film is going to turn their children into atheists? If that could work, just show them Narnia straight afterwards to turn them into Christians...It isn't that simple.

I've yet to get around to reading the books, but I am obviously right about them and Narnia. *Insert awesome quote from Thursday Next or OG- right here.*

Having actually read the book, yes the e-mail seems targeted and very inappropriate to me. Whereas the movie is one I'm looking forward to.

If it WAS about killing God? I'd be more interested in the book and movie than I already am.

Sadly, it's not about that at all. The author who happens to be an agnostic and NOT an atheist was teasing and possibly trying to drive up book and ticket sales. I think it's going to work.

The bigger the freak out religious backlash, the better the sales will be.

It's all part of an awesome marketing plan, it wouldn't surprise me if certain religious leaders hadn't been paid to blow this thing up.

__________________
Bleacheddecay