By how much male roles dominate Hollywood movies?

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Please, no programmed outrage... I don't think anyone would disagree with the statement that in stand-up, men dominate, and funnier. Laughter is involuntary, and I'm not going to pick a token woman to be on my Top 10.. Either you believe in free speech or you don't (and that includes freedom of thought).



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Must be an American thing
Must be... I don't like any stand-ups from the UK, either... Believe me, I've seen them live and on TV, by the hundreds... I only love 3 things - film, music, and comedy. I won't deprive myself of pleasure to be in any group.



I disagree with those of you intent on mischaracterizing me as saying 'believe untrue things' which is not my position but it is a very lovely straw man
To be fair, this "straw man" came from a very straightforward reading of what you said, and you've already acknowledged that it was an easy thing to misinterpret and claimed some responsibility for same. This is to your credit, and I'm not giving you any grief for it, but I'm not sure that jibes with your decision, now, to suddenly take offense or read sinister motives into any misunderstanding.

I find it incredibly disheartening how many of you so passionately want to believe that women are just worse at stuff
Now this, I'm pretty sure, is a straw man. The argument, as far as I can see, is about whether we should even be open to the possibility of aggregate differences.

If I wanted to be similarly uncharitable, I could say I find it disheartening how many of you want to wash away everything that makes diversity valuable by unilaterally rejecting any talk of what makes people different from one another. But I suspect you would regard that as a glib, inaccurate, and unfair representation of what you're saying, much as I regard the summary above.

I'm done with this thread.
Well, I'm still going to reply to some of the things you said earlier, because I think there are still some clear mischaracterizations and some claims that are clearly based in ideology rather than evidence.

It is, of course, up to you if you want to respond or not. But there won't be any straw men or insults, or anything else that would give someone cause to disengage, other than a simple desire not to talk about it.



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Who is the funniest female comic you've seen? @matt72582
Roseanne Barr (Blonde and Bitchin' Tour)... Early Wanda Sykes.

You know, I went to the Melbourne Comedy Festival in Australia, and I have to say, the amateurs, the 10 Comics for $10 were better than the headliners. I only like about 1% of everything, hence why I visit message boards of all disciplines. I'll find good stuff, but have to endure a lot of garbage to get there.



Roseanne Barr (Blonde and Bitchin' Tour)... Early Wanda Sykes.

You know, I went to the Melbourne Comedy Festival in Australia, and I have to say, the amateurs, the 10 Comics for $10 were better than the headliners. I only like about 1% of everything, hence why I visit message boards of all disciplines. I'll find good stuff, but have to endure a lot of garbage to get there.
So, just to give me some sort of point of reference, out of ten, what would you give Roseanne Barr from that tour?



And since most movies tell male stories (except romantic comedies which should not even qualify as movies)
classic Hollywood rom-coms are awesome though. Seriously, if you watch The Philadelphia Story and your reaction is "this sucks!" there is something very wrong with you.



Does "if you don't like x, there must be something wrong with you" ever work?
Not sure, but is it worse than dismissing an entire genre?



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So, just to give me some sort of point of reference, out of ten, what would you give Roseanne Barr from that tour?
7/10.. She wouldn't make my Top 10. Maybe I like her more, especially those early seasons of Roseanne.

But if I had mentioned zero women, that doesn't mean anything my opinions are less valid. Art shouldn't be about "gotcha!" - people can't help what they love.



Not sure, but is it worse than dismissing an entire genre?
Not sure, but it won't get anyone to suddenly change position. Suggesting someone is defective for not confirming to what you like usually only makes them dig their heels in even more.



Not sure, but it won't get anyone to suddenly change position. Suggesting someone is defective for not confirming to what you like usually only makes them dig their heels in even more.
I don't actually think someone is defective for not liking a certain movie, it's hyperbole and really just me recommending a movie to them in an indirect way. Now if they had actually mentioned a film they hated and I called them a moron for not liking it, that would be different. Should have worded it differently in retrospect, but oh well.



And since most movies tell male stories (except romantic comedies which should not even qualify as movies)
classic Hollywood rom-coms are awesome though. Seriously, if you watch The Philadelphia Story and your reaction is "this sucks!" there is something very wrong with you.
Yeah but im a sucker for classic Hollywood in general. Haven’t seen Philadelphia story yet. Im talking more about the romcoms from my time (early 2000s to now)



The women in movies today are amazing. Men are usually portrayed as flawed (either no heart, no brain or no courage (the Wizard of Oz syndrome)).

I saw blockers the other day. There are three protagonists. The woman had heart, brains and courage (as they always do). Of the two men, one did not have courage (the smaller guy) and the big guy did not have brains. The woman's only flaw was that she cared too much. Why are men always shown these days as incredibly flawed while women are not? Why?

Men are always treated these days as inferior in movies (excepting the current run of superhero movies). Why?
I was thinking about that last year when I was reflecting on the fact that in Japanese fiction women are portrayed just like men: flawed selfish characters while in Western fiction women have to be perfect otherwise the creators will be accused of misogyny.

So my theory is that in today Western's society thanks to feminism women are seem as being unjustly relegated to second rate position compared to men and as a reaction in fiction they have to be put into a pedestal of perfection otherwise the creators would be accused of being misogynous.

That explains why people complain that "anime is sexist" since in Japanese fiction women are not put into pedestals. In many cases they are more stupid and whiny than the male characters:





The first case would be perhaps regarded as violence against women if made by westerners.



I've already written nearly 4000 words in this thread, and have thoroughly exhausted any desire I have to discuss this topic any further. I appreciate all your feedback, I disagree with those of you intent on mischaracterizing me as saying 'believe untrue things' which is not my position but it is a very lovely straw man, I find it incredibly disheartening how many of you so passionately want to believe that women are just worse at stuff, and I'm done with this thread.
I am sorry to see you go from this thread. Thanks for the conversation. I hope that the truth is revealed to you someday.



I am sorry to see you go from this thread. Thanks for the conversation. I hope that the truth is revealed to you someday.
Yeah, I was hoping he'd make a thoughtful response, but I guess he's too emotionally invested in his ideology. Hopefully some things said will process over time once he calms down. I think his main problem is just that he's starting with the conclusion he likes and working his logic backwards, and it's all based on assumption. They really need to teach logic in these schools.

Anyway in regards to the gender gap topic I would recommend checking out Thomas Sowell.



I don't think art dies if a black man plays the main role of a movie instead of a white man (except if the movie specifically calls for a white male). You're just exaggerating.
I didn't say that. You should try and grasp the nuances of the debate or otherwise you'll simply produce ridiculous responses.

It will die if a black man (or a woman) HAS TO play the main role instead of a white man (in a certain percentage of films) because of quota.

There's talk about quotas in here, but I see nothing in either the data or this discussion here that has someone arguing for quotas (strict, loose, or otherwise). I also see talk about "forcing" diversity in various forms. And I see talk about how surely this will even out in time.

Re: Quotas
The reason this is bugging me is because there's no need to reach for a straw version of arguments not even present here. This is just data. It's likely symptomatic and not causal. No one really seems to be saying otherwise, but there's a lot of back-patting for standing up for freedom when I just want to ask: who are you arguing against?
Against a whole bunch of very powerful female voices in the film industry perhaps. Have you forgotten Frances McDormand's Oscar speech already?
This is one of the hottest debates in Hollywood. It's obvious that people will use this kind of dataset as an argument in favor of quotas.

Re: It will just take time
Let's look at this data, look over the decades. It gets a little more balanced over time, but in no way is it trending toward anything CLOSE to balanced within 10, 20, or even 30 years. If that's not a problem for you for x, y, z reasons, that's fine, there's arguments sure. But unless you can point to something that would cause a total tidal shift, assuming it'll just happen is not apparent from the data.
So what's the alternative to time? Quotas?

Re: Forcing diversity
Here's the meat, in my opinion. There's a spectrum between forcing quotas and forcing people to be cognizant of their bias or the bias around them. Right now lets assume the problem is not driven by individual bias (where sexist producer X says the film must minimize female speaking time just because) but rather aggregate bias (meaning the accumulation of slight unconscious biases of many people as well as structural bias). One compelling way to combat aggregate bias is raising consciousness about the issue. Cause it to be a thought in filmmakers' minds: does this part need to be male?
Sure, I also support raising consciousness about genuine problems.
This spectrum you're talking about is actually a fine line, though. I think recent times are proving this. In Europe (Belgium) we have all kinds of unnatural quotas and bans that were implemented because of groups wich originally simply wanted to "raise consciousness".
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