Feminism in movies: refreshing or overplayed and extreme?

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I'm going to spoiler-text this list, because many of them veer more toward downer endings. This is a list of films where you have a flawed (but well-written! In my opinion, of course!) main character whose weakness/vulnerability drives or specifically informs the action. I'm not sure if you were wanting me to specify female-led films or just films in general. If you wanted female-led ones, let me know and I'll go back and sort the list accordingly. (EDIT: This is a partial list, titles from about 1/3 of my IMDb ratings and the most "mainstream". I'll limit it to this for now, but in the future could suggest more if you like them. Hopefully you find a few that you like!)

WARNING: spoilers below

Annihilation
Parasite
The Lighthouse
Hereditary
There Will Be Blood
The Witch
Ex Machina
The Invitation
Atonement
The Florida Project
Cloud Atlas
Enemy
Gravity
You Were Never Really Here
High Life
Session 9
Dogtooth
Grave of the Fireflies
Antichrist
A Single Man
A Serious Man
Triangle
The Conversation
Side Effects
Blood Simple
Little Children
Short Term 12
First Reformed
Stoker
Mary and Max
Possession

Thanks a lot! I’ve seen most of these, but I need to revisit ‘Mary and Max’ and ‘The Florida Project’.



Thanks a lot! I’ve seen most of these, but I need to revisit ‘Mary and Max’ and ‘The Florida Project’.
Have you seen Short Term 12? It's one of my favorites.

Okay, here's "wave 2". I have them sorted by popularity on IMDb, so these are slightly less well-known (but "well-known" really varies by film fan, so maybe you've also seen all of these and if so, sorry!) Do you have any films in this vein that you would recommend?

WARNING: spoilers below

Mommy
A Scanner Darkly
Naked
Blue Ruin
Brain Damage
The Blackcoat's Daughter
The Lure
Walkabout
Thelma
Mysterious Skin
River's Edge
The One I Love
I Lost My Body
Upstream Color (one of my favorite movies of all time)
In Fabric
Ravenous
The Painted Veil
Picnic at Hanging Rock
The Red Shoes
A Dark Song
Lilya-4-Ever
Man Who Fell to Earth
Joe
Personal Shopper
Stranger by the Lake
Women in Love



@Takoma11 I dig. Thanks for the constructive response.

The cynic in me is tempted to say "tentpole" and "significant and active and nuanced role" are mutually exclusive ideas, but I do think the intelligence level of the best blockbusters (though not the average or median blockbuster) is getting higher as time goes on, so here's hoping.



@Takoma11 I dig. Thanks for the constructive response.

The cynic in me is tempted to say "tentpole" and "significant and active and nuanced role" are mutually exclusive ideas, but I do think the intelligence level of the best blockbusters (though not the average or median blockbuster) is getting higher as time goes on, so here's hoping.
And that's part of the problem right?

I guess more broadly I take a bit of issue with how the word "feminism" is used in conversations like this. To me, a movie where a female character quips "Don't send a man to do a woman's job" before punching someone isn't feminist. It's like, dollar store "feminism". It's lowest common denominator "feminism". I think that feminism is too often miscontrued as anger or aggression toward men, which it really isn't. "Woman punches man" is a crude reduction of what it means for women to fight against gender-based oppression. The problem is that big budget films cater to reductive selling points (like "Gun goes bang!" or "Car goes fast!" or "You go girl!").

I know I've mentioned it like a billion times (as I often do with films I love), but Mad Max: Fury Road is, in my opinion, a great example of a film that develops a female character and realizes that her being female isn't even in the top three things most interesting about her. But when you look at the trailer, it's pretty interesting how much her role is downplayed, and how much comparable screen time is given to the cowering wives they are trying to save. Only the male characters (Max, Nux, Immortan Joe) get dialogue aside from a single line. I think that the sad truth is that people react negatively to that shallow "You go girl!" feminism, and yet studios don't really trust an audience to want a film with a more complex, flawed female character.



Movie Forums Squirrel Jumper
Do Thelma and Louise and Set It Off, count as female empowerment movies, or do they not count, because of the endings?



I think Thelma and Louise is a good example, of well written female characters.


They're put upon, and they're pushed around... and they take their lives into their own hands for the sake of themselves and each other.
Like a sisterhood, and an unspoken bond between two people... and it's written well.


They don't go on a relentless march of man-hating adventures that was written to please a studio executive's agenda.



Movie Forums Squirrel Jumper
I think Thelma and Louise is a good example, of well written female characters.


They're put upon, and they're pushed around... and they take their lives into their own hands for the sake of themselves and each other.
Like a sisterhood, and an unspoken bond between two people... and it's written well.


They don't go on a relentless march of man-hating adventures that was written to please a studio executive's agenda.
Well to be fair, was the Louise character a bit of a man hater, since she told the one cop that be better treat his wife good, or else, etc. And she chose to murder a man, even thoug the man was bad, but still chose to, after he was already surrendered at gunpoint? So does she maybe have a man hating chip on her shoulder?

But also, since the women
WARNING: "SPOILER" spoilers below
choose to kill themselves at the end, and therefore, sort of loose in a sense, I wasn't sure if people would count it as female empowerment therefore, unless I am wrong.



From Quora:
The film, Thelma & Louise, represents women's opposition against a society/set of institutions dominated by males. Their choice to commit suicide by driving off the cliff symbolizes their rejection of a world that is dominated by males - an environment that has wronged them on multiple occasions.

The movie itself revolves around the struggles women have in that kind of world.
They decide to get away for a weekend... Thelma's husband is an abusive ass-hat, and Louise has a boyfriend who's never really there.


On their weekend away... Thelma is flirty with a guy... who then tries to rape her.
Louise ends up killing the guy in a fit of anger.



They flee, are scared, and they end up on a downward rollercoaster adventure, that eventually leads to their mutually agreed suicides.


If Thelma and Louise was made today... it'd have Thelma in an abusive relationship.
Thelma would stand up to her husband, probably karate kick his ass... and Louise would then dump her boyfriend by text.


The attempted rape of Thelma would end with both Thelma and Louise karate kicking the attacker, and his buddies then coming out of the bar to help him... and Thelma and Louise then karate kick and quip-wise their way through the whole lot of slapstick-men, then go on an adventure of karate kicking their way through numerous situations, and then being killed by male police officers because they hate women.



I think one of the earlier examples of this new-thinking is Robin Hood (2010).


Maid Marian was always the damsel in distress.
In Prince Of Thieves for example, she kills a guy, and is totally distraught at what she's done.
Yet, she's strong enough to stand her ground, outsmart various male characters, involves herself to an extent in the finale fight between Robin and the Sheriff... all the while still holding that damsel in distress persona.
She's intelligent, strong, witty... but has weaknesses and disadvantages.



In Robin Hood (2010), Marian is basically superwoman, who outshines Robin in every aspect of life... eventually she dons a suit of armour, and rides into battle on horseback in a relentless march of victory



Movie Forums Squirrel Jumper
Oh okay. I remember Robin Hood, being better than Prince of Thieves, for it's story, but I could watch it again, and see if I think differently on a second viewing.



Have you seen Short Term 12? It's one of my favorites.

Okay, here's "wave 2". I have them sorted by popularity on IMDb, so these are slightly less well-known (but "well-known" really varies by film fan, so maybe you've also seen all of these and if so, sorry!) Do you have any films in this vein that you would recommend?

WARNING: spoilers below

Mommy
A Scanner Darkly
Naked
Blue Ruin
Brain Damage
The Blackcoat's Daughter
The Lure
Walkabout
Thelma
Mysterious Skin
River's Edge
The One I Love
I Lost My Body
Upstream Color (one of my favorite movies of all time)
In Fabric
Ravenous
The Painted Veil
Picnic at Hanging Rock
The Red Shoes
A Dark Song
Lilya-4-Ever
Man Who Fell to Earth
Joe
Personal Shopper
Stranger by the Lake
Women in Love

Yes, ‘Short Term 12’ is great. It was the first film I watched with Lakeith Stanfield, and I rewatched it after ‘Get Out’ came out. Btw, I found the story Jayden wrote incredibly creepy. I remember not expecting to like ‘The Blackcoat’s Daughter’, but it turned out to be very well-made, especially the subplot with Rose’s parents running into Kat. I’m very fond of many of the films you listed, they would be in my Tier 2 of favourites, especially ‘The Dark Song’ and ‘Mysterious Skin’. I’m also a huge fan of Shane Carruth - it’s a shame he’s only made two films - but I prefer ‘Primer’ (2004) to ‘Upstream Colour’, because it addresses time travel in an incredibly innovative way. Fun fact: a quantum physicist once told me if time travel did work, it would work pretty much the way it does in ‘Primer’.

I think the way I approached the topic was more narrow. I was thinking primarily of films where characters don’t overcome their circumstances. Hence my list is tiny:

WARNING: spoilers below

Christine (2016) - probably the perfect example.
American History X (1998)
An honorable mention would be ‘I, Tonya’ (2017).


I think in all these cases, the protagonist fails spectacularly, and it’s framed as their personal failure, rather than evil prevailing, which isn’t the same thing. If I think of any more, I’ll add to it.



The thing isolated becomes incomprehensible
It always depends on how it's done. If it's the Marvel way, of artificially and blatantly screaming: "LOOK, WE ARE SHOWING WOMEN DOING COOL STUFF, LOOK HOW WAKE WE ARE" it's totally bull**** and does more harm than good tbh. The same to all the sequels or remakes with female casts like Ocean's or Ghostbusters or the more recent rumor of the 007, which would be a total abomination. It gives the idea that women can't stand on their own, they need to remake popular male characters so they get respect. It's treating them like victims, not equals.

However, strong female characters have existed in the past, even in blockbuster films. Ripley in Alien being one of the most famous. She's never a victim, she's never sexualised, she's a badass who singlehandedly destroys the most dangerous creature in the universe multiple times. That's feminism. But there's also Jessica Chastin in Zero Dark Thirty, or the obvious Leia that manages a great balance between being a sex symbol and a badass, Jodie Foster in The Silence of the Lambs, Frances McDormand in most of the movies she does especially Fargo, Pam Grier in Jackie Brown, etc etc...

In sum, as with everything, it's the quality of the script and the actress who creates power and becomes true feminism.



Elizabeth Moss in The Invisible Man
Furiosa in Mad Max, Fury Road
The female characters in Lady Bird
The entire cast of Little Women
The main character in Emma (the complete opposite of a Mary Sue)
The lead character of Moana
Toni Collete in Hereditary
The two leads in Booksmart
The two leads in Portrait of a Lady on Fire
The ENTIRE female cast of Annihilation, even the secondary characters.
The female lead in Arrival

All of these characters, at least the ones I know, were great ones but the thing is female characters can generally be great in movies.


But usually when a movie is focused on women it ends up being cliche or cheesy and overplayed. Like in many feminism films one of the characters always must be lesbian, as if that immediately tells us that she is a true feminist - Booksmart.
Or must have been hurt by men in her past or in the present etc.


My point is that modern films that try to be feminist or focus on women are ruined by the stereotype of what a strong independent woman is and therefore end up being unwatchable.



But usually when a movie is focused on women it ends up being cliche or cheesy and overplayed. Like in many feminism films one of the characters always must be lesbian, as if that immediately tells us that she is a true feminist - Booksmart.
Or must have been hurt by men in her past or in the present etc.
That pretty much sums it up. ‘Booksmart’ is competently made, but it’s no ‘Donnie Darko’. I think it lacks the stakes and narrative complexity for that scope. Female-driven films don’t tend to be good at generating and maintaining tension, ‘Zero Dark Thirty’ and the rest of Bigelow’s work aside (but she tends to make thrillers anyway). I often find myself less invested in what happens because the stakes are simply too low, even if it’s very well done. I think it’s partly because women-driven films aim at the female demographic, and rarely have universal reach.

My point is that modern films that try to be feminist or focus on women are ruined by the stereotype of what a strong independent woman is and therefore end up being unwatchable.
Strongly worded perhaps, but I agree with the gist. It’s also ironic how films about women who are not ‘strong’ and bask in male attention or live off their lovers’ means seem to be panned by critics, just because they don’t put forward the ‘independent’ stereotype.



But usually when a movie is focused on women it ends up being cliche or cheesy and overplayed. Like in many feminism films one of the characters always must be lesbian, as if that immediately tells us that she is a true feminist - Booksmart.
Or must have been hurt by men in her past or in the present etc.
And usually when a movie is focused on a man it ends up being cliche or cheesy. Most movies have cliched or cheesy elements. I would argue that for every "lesbian feminist" there's a man in a movie with a shrill ex-wife/ex-girlfriend. For every woman "who has been hurt by a man" there is a male character out there with a complicated relationship with his dad. Do we even want to talk about the entire male-centric subgenre of men whose daughters have been kidnapped?

Booksmart is a teen buddy comedy about two young women who have socially isolated themselves for their entire high school careers. And, yes, for one character that does involve her sexuality. But the defining element of her character wasn't that she was gay. The funniest sequences in the film are universal (as in they could work with male or female characters): tripping on drugs and thinking they are dolls; getting picked up by the principal and accidentally playing porn over the car speakers; the serial killer pizza guy. In fact, you could even argue that a lot of Amy's experiences are also universal: having a crush on someone, an ill-considered bathroom hookup, etc.

My point is that modern films that try to be feminist or focus on women are ruined by the stereotype of what a strong independent woman is and therefore end up being unwatchable.
I'm not saying that there aren't films that try to use a very shallow form of rote "feminism" as a selling point. But there are a TON of modern films that focus on female characters that are really excellent. If movies that sell themselves entirely on "Girl power!" are unwatchable to you . . . . DON'T WATCH THEM. Such a simple solution. Instead watch women-centered films like Annihilation that empower women not by making them untouchable perfect creatures, but by making them complex and interesting.



Movie Forums Squirrel Jumper
Well I can see how there are some movies where the feminism is forced, in the last few years as pointed out, but however, it seems this is only happening in American movies, if that's right?

I watch a lot of foreign films from around the world, and they don't seem to have feminism forced as the main selling point, that some American movies do in the last few years. Spain and South Korea for example, in my opinion, are making the best movies lately, but you don't see it in those movies, at least where it doesn't feel like they are doing it just to sell the movie. So how come, the American movie industry seems to be the only one that cares to do this, unless I am wrong?



Also, I wonder how you'd all be reacting if the title of this thread was "Racial Equality in movies: Refreshing or overplayed and extreme?". After all, there's nothing subtle about the lead characters in Bad Boys 2 bursting out of Klan outfits and declaring "Uh, oh, it's the negroes!" Or what about Wesley Snipes growling "Always bet on black!". Did you know that Passenger 57 was originally written for Clint Eastwood, but the studio rewrote it and the exact words of the original writer are "and then it became a black movie"? Can we all feel the tone of how he says "black movie"?

Can we concede that big budget movies will often paint with broad strokes when it comes to messages of inclusion and/or empowerment of traditionally neglected demographics? How many one-dimensional racists or homophobes have been put in their place in the last 20 years of cinema? (But on the flip side, how many one-dimensional "terrorists" have been put in their place by white male characters, hmmm?)

Key & Peele actually have a great sketch about this tendency to "swing big" because it gets that positive reaction:


If you don't like the clunky girl power presentation of something like Captain Marvel (which I haven't seen, but I'll take your word that it's not subtle), then I hope you are actively supporting films that do tell women-centered stories with complexity, things like Arrival or Lady Bird or Eighth Grade. That's the critical difference between an audience that wants good women-centered movies and an audience that just doesn't want women-centered movies at all.



Also, I wonder how you'd all be reacting if the title of this thread was "Racial Equality in movies: Refreshing or overplayed and extreme?". After all, there's nothing subtle about the lead characters in Bad Boys 2 bursting out of Klan outfits and declaring "Uh, oh, it's the negroes!" Or what about Wesley Snipes growling "Always bet on black!". Did you know that Passenger 57 was originally written for Clint Eastwood, but the studio rewrote it and the exact words of the original writer are "and then it became a black movie"? Can we all feel the tone of how he says "black movie"?

Can we concede that big budget movies will often paint with broad strokes when it comes to messages of inclusion and/or empowerment of traditionally neglected demographics? How many one-dimensional racists or homophobes have been put in their place in the last 20 years of cinema? (But on the flip side, how many one-dimensional "terrorists" have been put in their place by white male characters, hmmm?)

Key & Peele actually have a great sketch about this tendency to "swing big" because it gets that positive reaction:


If you don't like the clunky girl power presentation of something like Captain Marvel (which I haven't seen, but I'll take your word that it's not subtle), then I hope you are actively supporting films that do tell women-centered stories with complexity, things like Arrival or Lady Bird or Eighth Grade. That's the critical difference between an audience that wants good women-centered movies and an audience that just doesn't want women-centered movies at all.

I agree with the sentiment in the beginning of your post. But it’s a bit unfair to ‘hope’ people ‘actively support’ something. If Martin Scorsese is free to say Marvel films are trash (sorry, ‘theme parks’), other individuals should also be free to watch what they like. Otherwise, unless you’re part of the industry, you don’t get to have an opinion. It is certainly not acceptable to criticise female-centred films just because they star women, or prevent them from being made, but if you enjoy them less than other films, should you really vote for them with your money? I feel that it’s just not reasonable to expect an audience to want women-centred narratives. You can make someone consume something by making it and putting it where it will be seen, but you cannot make anyone want something that they originally didn’t.

Of course, there’s a whole different conversation about advertising, but this is where the people who say Hollywood is now ‘force-feeding’ feminism are coming from: when governments lobby against smoking and introduce anti-smoking legislation, you can say they are preventing people from smoking, but there’s no evidence that they’re making people want to smoke less. They are just removing the opportunities to do so. One could argue that’s acceptable in the realm of public health, and likewise that establishing ‘healthy’ attitudes is equally acceptable in art/entertainment, but personally, that makes me uncomfortable. When I see my father who lives abroad, I often look for something to watch that he’d enjoy (he’s a cinephile too and has seen a ton of films), and there’s very little made in the recent years. And the experience I’m looking for at that moment is to enjoy it with him, so I, too, want something in the vein of what I would usually watch with him as a child, i.e. the Bond films, Indiana Jones, Star Wars etc. And that’s harder and harder to find. Shouldn’t films cater to all kinds and demographics, instead of becoming irreversibly progressive? I’m not saying that women-centered films shouldn’t be made, I’m saying an audience is not obliged to want female-centered films.

I feel this is a much deeper and more complex topic, more to do with what makes a film exciting, and what it is that makes an audience want more films like that.



I agree with the sentiment in the beginning of your post. But it’s a bit unfair to ‘hope’ people ‘actively support’ something. If Martin Scorsese is free to say Marvel films are trash (sorry, ‘theme parks’), other individuals should also be free to watch what they like.
I'm absolutely not mandating that people support women-centered films just for the sake of throwing them dollars or views. Everyone should watch what interests them. There are plenty of films featuring mostly or all women that I skip because they don't interest me and I feel zero guilt in doing so.

I was specifically addressing the kind of people who complain about all that feminism, who often make sure to mention that they want to support "good" female characters. Interestingly, I don't often tend to see them talk about that many films with good female characters. If people genuinely want films to have good female characters, then they should support such films. If you are uninterested in female-centered films period, don't watch them. But talking smack about "feminist" films, saying you want "good" female characters, and then not actually seeking out films with good female characters is kind of weaselly.

I feel that it’s just not reasonable to expect an audience to want women-centred narratives.
But it is reasonable to say that if someone asserts that they want good movies with good female characters, then they should support such films.

I often look for something to watch that he’d enjoy (he’s a cinephile too and has seen a ton of films), and there’s very little made in the recent years. And the experience I’m looking for at that moment is to enjoy it with him, so I, too, want something in the vein of what I would usually watch with him as a child, i.e. the Bond films, Indiana Jones, Star Wars etc. And that’s harder and harder to find. Shouldn’t films cater to all kinds and demographics, instead of becoming irreversibly progressive?
Surely you're not suggesting that male-centered action/adventure films have been displaced by women-centered films. I mean, most of the Marvel films (22 out of 23), the Bond franchise (which is still around), the Star Trek franchise, the Fast and the Furious franchise, the recent King Arthur film, the Mission Impossible franchise, Edge of Tomorrow, the Jumanji movies, the list goes on and on, are centered on male characters. I'm not sure what you mean by "irreversibly progressive". Most films, and especially most mainstream action/adventure films, still center on male characters.

It's true that there isn't as much 80s-era type action adventure, PG-13 stuff these days--it's all been taken over by superheroes. But that's not because of progressive agendas (again, 22 out of 23 Marvel films are male-centered), it's just the current film climate.

I feel this is a much deeper and more complex topic, more to do with what makes a film exciting, and what it is that makes an audience want more films like that.
Which goes back to something I said earlier: if you don't like films that paint their themes in broad strokes, then just don't watch them. I can totally understand someone not wanting to watch Captain Marvel. I just find myself a little perplexed about the number of people who seem to be mad that it exists.