How Gay are you?

Shoot...I thought it was hilarious. I'm staying out of this gay discussion. I am no where near as good at point by point debate as T. I wish I was, I would defend the hell out of you,T; but alas, I'd rather save myself from looking like a jack-@ss. I'm a coward.

Well, I believe it's a sin...and sin is self destructive. Can two people like that live happily? Well, it depends on what you mean. Ya know, some people look very happy being greedy, or womanaizing all their lives. Hugh Hefner looks pretty happy, doesn't he? Though I wouldn't say he actually is. The love he receives is not genuine. I think he knows it, too. By the way: my dad and I love each other and care for each other, so it's not about two people of the same gender loving and caring for each other and enjoying each other's company...it's about homosexuality, which is, IMO, an over-the-line extension of that affection.

Tough question. It might depend on the issue. In general, though, is it a possibility? Absolutely. We all know that some Christians will believe whacked out things only so that they don't have to admit this or that about the world, or about God. Obviously, the same applies to other people: a homosexual person may also have a bias to believe this or that to justify their behavior as reasonable. Example: a homosexual arguing against the existence of God because they don't want to admit that their lifestyle is sinful.

Yes, I do think it matters. I do not see love in the same light as some people. I do *NOT* believe there is a soulmate for each and every one of us. I think that in all of the rarest cases, there are other people a person could marry and be perfectly happy.

When a man claims to love another man in a romantic and sexual way, I guess, yes, he can be said to be in love (though we can't measure a thing like that). However, what is it he is in love with? The man, or with homosexuality? Is he love with his sinful act?

I suspect that, even with all that aside, they can be in love...but I don't think it matters. Sort of the same thinking that has me telling myself it doesn't matter if I'm in love with a married woman. Loving another human is not what my life is revolved around. My life is aimed to serve God, and, as a result, make this world better. I have personal goals (some selfish in nature, I'm sorry to say), but God should come before all. I only say this because I expect some of you might be take aback by my treating love as if it's not the most amazing, special thing in the world. IT IS...but the love of two humans cannot compare to the love God feels for us.

Like I said: if we're gonna judge them by their actions, apparently it's okay for them to have sex with our legs...or other inanimate objects. The point of me saying that is this: animals are dumb. They run around trying to mate and don't pay much attention to what it is they're mating with. I don't think it's anything more than that.

I appreciate that, Sades (you complementing me...not you stopping yourself from look like a jack-a** ). However, for every person who tells me they admire my argumentative nature, there's always someone on the other end who hates me for arguing too much. It's a shame, because there's very little change I'll ever change! Maybe when I'm older (near retirement or something) I'll mellow out.

Here's a point I can talk about. No sin is a SUPER SIN. Sin is sin. It's an area that only God is an expert in because his ways are not our ways. If it were up to me to judge people, we'd be in a heep of trouble because if an serial killer asked me if he could be forgiven, I'd tell him to go to hell. If some shoplifter asked my forgiviness, I'd only be too quick to pardon them. God has the power to forgive anything, and to him, there is no small sin or big sin...it's all the same smell. We, as humans, divide sin into catagories based on our own morals, beliefs, and values. All of us come to the table with our own preset ideas of where the line between right and wrong is drawn. I know lots of gay individuals, I have an uncle who's gay and has had the same partner longer than I've been alive, if it were up to me to decide if he was a sinner or not, the choice would be easy. Him and Aunt Don, are the coolest people I know, and it would be easy for me to shoo them into heaven...but it's between them and God. I'm relieved it's not up to me to judge. I'm glad I get to just live here and tolerate who I want to, and ignore those I don't...based on judgement of character, not lifestyle choices.Whew...getting off my soapbox now.

That's an excellent point. Yes, we do not know how God categorizes sin. However, wouldn't you consider it safe to say that certain sins are obviously worse than others? When you think lustful thoughts, you harm yourself...but when you murder someone, you're harming many people at once.

I don't claim to be an authority on how sin is broken up...your point is right on. However, I do think it makes sense to analyze the nature of some sins, and perhaps conclude that they may be worse than others. Sin is sin, indeed. By "super-sin," I mean it as a relative term...in comparison to the others. I suppose that this area is a tad murky...I wouldn't hestitate to declare murder 100 times worse than a man gluttonizing at Thanksgiving...but at the same time, I wouldn't declare it was undeniable fact, either.

It's the intentions of the heart. If the serial killer was serial killing because he's delusional, and is suffering from some chemical imbalance, and he honestly believes in his heart of hearts, that the devil or whatever is making him kill; then who's to say that the man at Thanksgiving, who is stuffing his face so that he can maintain his weight at " clinical obesity" so that he can stay on disability, in order to stay home and look at child pornography on the internet all day...is the lesser sin? We just don't know. Only God could know the intention's of someone's heart. I think it's safe to say, no one is in a position to judge.

I like those extreme examples...they're so intricate. Yes, none of us can judge...however, I really don't feel hesitant to declare the sin of murder, all things being equel, to be worse than the sin of gluttony. The problem lies in a situation where you have someone claiming it as fact. But yes, overall, you are right: super-sin was probably the wrong phrase to use. I'm as guilty as anyone who uses the word "homophobe."

However, MORE sin is something we can, at least somewhat, measure. If homosexuality is a sinful state that you're in 24 hours a day, well, then it could be worse than some others, that are momentary (an evil thought that drifts through your mind for a moment, for example). However, I don't know if being homosexual puts you in some constant state of sin or not. And yes, we are all sinful by nature, but I wouldn't say we are ALL in a constant state of sin. That is, we are not sinning every second of every day. We are SINFUL every second...and we are unclean...but not actually sinning.

It's times like this I think I ought to learn me some Hebrew and go straight to the original source.

I never said it wasn't good. I was rollin...

__________________
"I was walking down the street with my friend and he said, "I hear music", as if there is any other way you can take it in. You're not special, that's how I receive it too. I tried to taste it but it did not work." - Mitch Hedberg

yeah, didn't we have an argument about translation a long while back?

well ya know what it could come down to, too? the "sinning" issue is relavant to Christian concepts. Not all of us are christian, or practice it in the same was as you, Chris. but yes, your opinion as a Christian was asked for. I'd just like to say that I believe in God and that Christ existed as his son - if that makes me Christian, then yes, I am. But I have a different take on the homosexuality as sin issue.

I agree sades, we cannot judge as God would in these things. Taking a high moral stance is not our place, we're everyday people. We aren't God, we aren't in Heaven, we aren't buddhist monks, etc. That's why I choose not to, in that sense. Or I TRY not to, and when I catch myself doing it (as we all do with our own value systems) I try to think for the other side and let it go. Sometimes it's hard, though. But I try to out of the knowledge that it is exactly such behavior that contributes to OTHER sins of the world. For example, righteous Americans out beating middle eastern looking people are doing it for a reason and they got there in just such a way.

If what you do TRULY hurts yourself - gay, obese, abusive, crack addict - who's to say where/what the sin is? Not us. If we're on the receiving end of a thug's brutality - we know it's wrong. We have been hurt. But it is not our place to judge. We have a criminal system that has assumed that place on earth but for the realm beyond of value systems and ethics, we are not the final assessor.

The sins you mention, T - are cardinal sins created by the Catholic tradition. To wit - if they are listed TOGETHER then they are of equal trespass. Coveting a man's wife - the simple act of WANTING - is as bad as murder or as gluttony. But your personality has you altering that concept because you feel that a murderer is doing something worse.

In God's eyes (presuming here, for example) - it could be seen that ANY disrespect to the human body that he has given a person is a sin as bad as the murder or abuse or whatever to someone else. ie, gluttony is a gross (pun intended) mistreatment of the flesh that we have been privileged with and that's an offense to our creator.

the bible thing is something i take with a grain of salt. the bible's been through too many hands for me to know EXACTLY what God intends or sees or wants. I infer what I believe he wants - as I think, in the end, all believers do, and claiming absolute fact with this book is wishful thinking. but anyway, inferring as I do, I do my best to follow the MEANING within the nature of God and humanity, and hope that I'm doing ok and when MY assessment comes I've pretty much done what was expected. I cannot account for others nor say they aren't following X rules cuz, truthfully, I don't believe we can say EXACTLY what the rules are, let alone EXACTLY what God meant, or wants, from our following them. who knows? we can only live, and hope that our lives end up mostly good and "make up" for whatever things we were wrong about, because we couldn't know, and we can't read god's mind.

so, for homosexuals ... perhaps it's a horrible sin to lie with another man. perhaps it's a sin to WANT to. perhaps it's a sin to condone it. perhaps it's a sin to admire your uncle and aunt don. if it's destructive, to admire such behavior in others is to perpetuate that bad thing. so is it really bad? who does it truly hurt and who is to SAY if that love is false? Who can assume that their view of love is correct over the reality - for these are all assumptions, mine, yours, etc, and not necessarily the truth?

Who's to say what you know now won't change in 20 years when you discover that perhaps love is love and it will come WITH sin no matter what and that the nature of love is both flawed and beautiful and in the end the flaws matter not because the good in love justifies it - just as living our lives unsure of our sins and in search of good does.

i say that if someone is in love and continues to love ... it does not matter if what they are doing is not the "norm" compared to the majority of the populace on earth. if it is a sin, let him have it. if it is wrong, he will have to face the end, not I. I will not judge him, in the meantime, for his love gives him and his partners bliss and if the nature of it hurts anyone (family) it's those who cannot love HIM unconditionally.

word

I think anything in excess is something to stay away from. It's the rule of thumb I live by. Too much of anything isn't healthy. It goes with anything...caffine, sex, drinking, smoking, whatever your addiction may be...

I don't agree, Miriam. My philosophy is not based around letting people do whatever, saying absolutely nothing, and letting God decide in the end. I let God decide, but in the meantime, if I find God's Word to make it evident that something is wrong, I will say so when the issue arises, as it has here.

I do not have to claim anykind of Biblical authority or Divine Knowledge to speak out against homosexuality...I just have to claim that I've read a little bit of The Bible, and find that God's command is clear here. No more, no less. I am not promoting drastic action...I just do not accept it as a good, normal thing. I think it is erosive.

The sin of homosexuality is not created by any man...they are created by God. I'm not just following The Catholic Church like a sheep...I don't follow them. I respect The Pope and think he hs a very Holy Man, but he is a man nonetheless. What they have to say on this, as of now, has no effect on my stance.

The Bible is here for a reason. Yes, we have problems with translation...but not so many as to leave us wandering around in the dark. Some things are very evident in The Bible...and not lost in translation. Technically, you could turn away from all of The Bible because of this, but I don't think it's practical...some of the translation is straightforward, obviously. I don't think I am truly "judging someone" when I tell them I don't agree with their sexual choices. I am judging their actions...not them. I think that's a key difference. I am not declaring them to Eternal Damnation...I am renouncing their actions. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Anyway, I'm short on sleep...I don't even wanna play "Count the Typos" with my post at this point.

word..

Both of you make a very good point...

lol, spud alrighty, lessee ..

My philosophy is not based around letting people do whatever, saying absolutely nothing, and letting God decide in the end.

That's not what I said. All people have a right to an opinion. We all have a right and a nature to not only have it, but share it. To some degree I think people have a right to judge (saying for example, slapping me for smiling at you is wrong, and hugging me for hugging you is right). But judging the worth of a person is different from having an opinion on something they do. You seemed to be doing the former and I was cautioning against that.

As for your philosophy, you're certainly entitled to it. If you do choose to judge others as a Christian, or their actions, your right of choice to do that. And I most certainly don't always "say nothing" when I disagree with something ... obviously. So why would I encourage that in anyone?

I let God decide, but in the meantime, if I find God's Word to make it evident that something is wrong, I will say so when the issue arises, as it has here.

yeah, that's totally cool. like I already said, someone asked for your opinion as a Christian, and you gave it. I totally agree.

I do not have to claim anykind of Biblical authority or Divine Knowledge to speak out against homosexuality...I just have to claim that I've read a little bit of The Bible, and find that God's command is clear here. No more, no less.

like i said, you're totally free to speak out against it. my point is ... that doesn't mean you're right. and having biblical support doesn't mean you're right either. having the support of 200 people or the whole populace of the earth doesn't either. and we will not know until some muuuch later date. basically a sensitivity to the big picture and flaws in humanity - in judging others - demands, by logic and the very nature of that sensitivity an awareness that any judgement we make has just the same propensity to be flawed. and yeah, that totally means *I* could be wrong!

as for god's command being clear ... like i said. interpretation. i have been to a dozen churches with a dozen pastors and around hundreds of practioners who all interpret it in various ways. add that to the translations and the fact the text is old as all heck and, well ... grain of salt. if you feel the meaning is crystal clear to you, good! it isn't to me.

also, what i'm saying is this is a moral issue of character judgement and only god can see the whole truth of a person's character. you yourself mentioned uncertainty. if god is what we understand him to be (and obviously we all have diff't ideas) - he has no doubts. therefore IF i make judgements I don't presume to be RIGHT or even that it's ok to make judgements of this nature.

a sinner judging sinners is a questionable thing at best, but like i said, with our own value systems, it can't be helped. therefore I just try to think FOR the other side if I ever do so that I am as close as i can to being fair about it.

I am not promoting drastic action...I just do not accept it as a good, normal thing. I think it is erosive.

how so, though, i wonder. sure, one can bring up diseases. but the same thing happens with heterosexual relationships. and then that means you get into comparing, which i say one can't do cuz we're biased and don't know how God handles it.

The sin of homosexuality is not created by any man...they are created by God.

um, this logic makes me raise an eyebrow. sure he created the do/don't theory but once it was DONE. i don't even think sin was created, unless it's the law of trespass, in which case, yes, god seems to have created that. but sin exists within our natures because we are fallible. he created fallible creatures. that's like creating an animal that gets hungry and saying you created hunger. i'm leaning toward ... not really. if two men are going to look at one another and fall in love - they did it and are going to do it just like people are going to see a lot of food and want to eat it. it IS, in a way, nature. human nature is diverse, complex and predictably unpredictable. which is why i don't buy the "nature" theory. it is man's nature to 1) break rules, 2) do what he wants, 3) procreate. yeah we were CREATED to make babies and be het, but it is our NATURE to do almost anything, which is why man is capable of anything and entirely fallible. the greatest failures make room for the greatest successes.

I'm not just following The Catholic Church like a sheep...I don't follow them.

i actually knew this but was calling you on using cardinal sins, which, as I said are developed from the catholic tradition. you aren't catholic so you shouldn't necessarily be using that as an example because in a way they should not carry the meaning to YOU that you used them for. or if you do use it, have a disclaimer. plus i was messing with the logic there of gluttony vs. murder and which is worse. i'm not catholic either (as I said) but have family members who are.

The Bible is here for a reason. Yes, we have problems with translation...but not so many as to leave us wandering around in the dark.

there's a difference between stumbling around in the dark and taking things with a grain of salt, buddy. you know which one i said. exaggeration of my points isn't fair when arguing back.

...Technically, you could turn away from all of The Bible because of this, but I don't think it's practical...

this speaks to the exaggeration but uh, no i didn't vouch for turning away from it entirely. i think most religious texts have something entirely useful and most have questionable things somewhere in them. though i'm sure that would offend lots of people and I apologize now for that.

I don't think I am truly "judging someone" when I tell them I don't agree with their sexual choices. I am judging their actions...not them. I think that's a key difference. I am not declaring them to Eternal Damnation...I am renouncing their actions. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

i know what you mean. but i'm wondering if that's really the case HERE. if we are all sinners and bound in sin, then sin is a part of us. to hate the sin, most particularly what is in this case a PART of someone is still to hate that part of them. no, you don't hate them as a whole, normally - like hating smoking and hating whatever it is in a person that makes them stubbornly continue to do it though it kills them and others around them despite the begging of those people around them. but even if you hate it you still sort of embrace them because you realize it's their choice and if they ask you about it or if they get in your face about it you're not afraid to say that no, you don't like it and wish they'd stop cuz you think it's bad.

but what happens when a family member or friend tells you they're gay? i asked my best friend this a year or more ago. i said, what if I came to you and told you i was gay? would you treat me differently? would you not be the same way as a friend? would i be different to you?

she said yes. i'm not gay. but that hurt. and you said, earlier, that it might indeed make you treat someone differently. but i'm not talking if someone suddenly told you online they were really a girl or something. i'm talking how you see the person inside, how you respect their views, how you care and weigh their opinions and how you have them in your life. if i'm an artist and I need to write - and you hate that I write, then, you do not accept ME. if I'm a Christian and you hate Christianity - then you can't accept ME. it's not little stuff. there's a difference between changing some because you grow up and learn things or move to another city or start smoking or get married. i'm talking values, ethics - who a person is. a person is no different if they are gay, blind, poor, rich, fat, beautiful, of another ethnicity or religion or country.

and it totally saddens me that my best friend - supposedly so openminded - is not capable of really following that with me, her best friend of 10 years. but that would be me judging her.

[Edited by thmilin on 11-06-2001]

We all fall short in the area of sin. I know what I should and shouldn't be doing, yet I do things, all the time, I know isn't right. It's ultimately our choice. God gave us free will. Otherwise, we'd be running around, these mindless zombies, no control over our own actions. It's bitter-sweet. On one hand, you have free will. On the other hand, you have the consequences of sin. I guess the best way to learn is through our biggest mistakes. I get so angry at the choices people I love, make. My sisters especially. I just want to grab them by the collar and be like, what are you doing? You're doing the wrong things here! What would that accomplish? Absolutely nothing. If anything, they'd want to do whatever it was, more. It's the same with us and God. He knows what he wants for us...and he could surly direct us down that path, but what would we learn? Nothing. This way, with free will...we learn by trial and error. That's what we have to keep in mind when people anger us...they're learning too, and making mistakes just like us. No one has the right to judge anyone...who's to say they aren't learning some life-lesson, and if you stand there pointing the finger, they aren't gonna get it. Neither will you. I'm still learning how to not judge, it's one thing to do it openly...and just as bad to do it in your head.

right on, sister! right on!

word.

My apologies Miriam -- I guess I wasn't paying much attention. I realize that I said things in a manner that implied that I was accusing you of saying this or that...that was not my intent. I'll be more careful in the future.

Anyway, on with it!

I agree. Obviously judgements need to be made. We need to respond to certain crimes and actions that are so obvoiusly hazardous to us. We also have to have opinions on things (although some are apathetic...but not us privelaged few! )...so the least we can do is try to be objective and fair when we do make those judgements.

Well, The Bible makes it pretty clear that homosexuality is a sin...and obviously, The Bible tells us that sin is a bad thing that, despite perhaps immediate gratification, is bad in virtually all ways in the long term. Aside from that, the statistics I've seen on homosexuals imply a greater average number of partners and diseases. I don't claim it as fact, but it does fit with my opinion of it, which is that it's not a normal relationship. Again, I want to stress even further that I'm not trying to make homosexuals seem sub-human, or anything of the sort. A very good friend of mine (one I wish I could see more...he lives in another state), I believe, used to be involved in homosexuality. I'm not sure, but I believe him to have been involved in it at some point, and I really like spending time with him. He's a very funny guy, and I can think of few people I'd rather spend the day with.

This is not about homosexuals being good or more people. It's a sensitive subject, but when I really think about it, I could just as easily be talking about someone who has a tendency to lie to get out of tough situations, or a guy who sleeps around too much. I'm not trying to single this sin out. Just want to make that clear...just in case.

I did a sickingly poor job of expressing myself there. Please forgive me!

What I mean is that we have not defined homosexuality as a sin. The Bible has. It's not men just deciding that homosexuality is a sin...it is written in The Good Book. When I say "nature" -- I mean what is best and optimal for us. Example: sin can said to be natural, but it's not our ideal state. Maybe "ideal" is a better word...but it doesn't completely encompass the thought I'm trying to put into words. Lying is a sub-action of talking. Talking is natural...but lying is not what we are meant to do, ideally. Homosexuality, IMO, isn't really a sub-action of sex. It is a replacement for sex...an un-natural one. I would say that someone have sex out of wedlock with a partner of the opposite sex is sinning in basically the same way (again, I can't accurately say if one is worse than theo ther)...but the act of sex with that person is a natural act that our body was designed for. Subtle difference...and probably not an important one, really. I guess I'm just picky.

Oh, I dunno. I don't think there's a problem with disliking a person's action or addiction, etc, and still loving them. If I had a son who was drunk and killed someone in a car crash as a result, I seriously doubt I would stop loving him, but I would obviously be furious with his irresponsibility and his actions, which amount to, basically, murder.

I think the reason I would not define our sin as part of us is that it is only part of us for now. In the end, if we want to, we can be cleansed of it. Aside from that, as hard as it may be for me to stop eating pizza, or for someone else to stop smoking, or having sex out of wedlock (homosexual or heterosexual), it IS possible. I don't believe that it is a disease...I believe it is a hurdle...one that can be jumped over, even if it is difficult. I don't think anyone has genes so strong that they are truly incapable of resisting such things.

Now, there is something else to be considered: repentence. Example: I know someone who is homosexual, and a very nice guy...he doesn't like homosexuality much, it seems. He wishes it were not a problem for him. I respect him for that...a lot. He's admitting that he has a problem...which, as we all know, is usually hailed as the first step. It's the same way with God: we sin all the live long day, but in the end, it's the admittance of that and the wanting to stop (even if you don't, or can't, realistically) that makes the difference.

Well, it depends. If the person/friend is willing to talk to you and have fun and such anyway, then they are still accepting you. They just don't accept one of the things you do. My best friend, and probably one of the very true good friends I've ever had, seems to be Pro-Choice these days. He's mostly apathetic (when I try to talk about it, he doesn't seem interested), so it's not some huge deal, but it does make me sad. I still love spending time with him, though. I really do. It brings me joy...especially now that I've gotten a bit older. I am *really* bothered by his view on abortion (assuming it's the same as it was when he mentioned it some time back)...but I still accept him.

Is it really a problem to say that you would not act the same? If someone said they supported Bin Laden as opposed to the U.S., you wouldn't treat them the same. If someone holds a view fundamentally contradictory to yours, on an important issue, then I think it'd be worse to ignore it and act as if it didn't matter...because it does. The only problem I can think of is taking it too far...by perhaps rejecting you altogether, or trying to shame/shun you, etc.

How so? Seems to me that it's those things that make you different from others. We are all the same in fundamental ways, but beyond that, we are all very different. I assume, however, that you mean that if you talk with someone and have fun, finding out that their gay shouldn't matter, because you liked them BEFORE you found out. However, I can see both sides here: if you're going to become truly good friends with someone, for a long period of time, issues like that will come up. Come to think of it, that's a test of sorts for the friendship. If I were to find out something like that about a friend of mine, I'd probably think "Oh no...it's gonna come up again and again as time goes on, and we're probably going to clash." A person you clash with all the time is a hard person to keep as a friend. Maybe your friend did the right thing by not only being honest (as tough as it might have been), but also by letting you know how they feel. If it's going to start argument after argument, maybe it's not to be. Just because it hasn't been a problem YET doesn't mean it won't be.

Sades: I partially agree. I think The Bible says to openly talk to these people about their sin, and to try to show them The Way. However, if someone is clearly not interested, I think The Bible also tells us not to spend long amounts of time on someone who will not heed our advice. So, I guess it's a matter of drawing the line. I don't think it's wrong, or fruitless, though, to speak out against things like this if you think they are a problem.

Everyone learns by trial and error...but it's a lot easier to learn from someone else's trial and error. I hope someday someone gives me a good kick in the a** to prevent me from making a mistake. It's the easier way, in some ways, to learn.

Wow, you guys are really getting deep with this....LOL

deep is a good thing spud. Not ALL conversations have to be light. I think it's good to debate some serious issues once in a while. Although...I'm clearly out of the loop on this one. Guess it's between T and thmmie now.