God isn't real

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"No one can prove an unrestricted negative" is the reply usually given to those who claim that science can prove that God does not exist. An unrestricted negative is a claim to the effect that something doesn't exist anywhere. Since no one can exhaustively examine every place in the universe, the reply goes, no one can conclusively establish the non-existence of anything.
The principle that no one can prove an unrestricted negative, however, is itself an unrestricted negative. It says, in effect, that there are no proofs of unrestricted negatives. But, if there are no proofs of unrestricted negatives, then no one can prove that no one can prove an unrestricted negative. And if no one can prove that no one can prove an unrestricted negative, then it must be logically possible to prove an unrestricted negative. So the claim that no one can prove a universal negative is self-refuting-if it's true, it's false. What I intend to show here is not only that unrestricted negatives can be proven, but that a number of them have been proven.

Parmenides realized over 2,500 years ago that anything that involves a logical contradiction cannot exist. We know that there are no married bachelors, no square circles, and no largest number because these notions are self-contradictory. They violate the most fundamental law of logic-the law of noncontradiction-which says that nothing can both have a property and lack it at the same time. So one way to prove a universal negative is to show that the notion of a thing is inconsistent.

To prove that God does not exist, then, one only has to demonstrate that the concept of God is inconsistent. Traditional theism defines God as a supreme being-a being than which none greater can be conceived, as St. Anselm would have it. We know, however, that there is no supreme number because such a notion involves a logical contradiction. Every number is such that the number 1 can be added to it. If there were a supreme number, it would be such that the number 1 can and cannot be added to it, and that's impossible. Many believe that the notion of a supreme being is just as incoherent as the notion of a supreme number.

Consider, for example, the claim that god is all-good and thus both perfectly merciful and perfectly just. If he is perfectly just, he makes sure that everyone gets exactly what's coming to them. If he is perfectly merciful, he let's everyone off. But he can't do both. So the notion of a supreme being may be internally inconsistent.

This is just one of many inconsistencies that have been found in the traditional concept of God. For a more complete review of them, see Theodore Drange, "Incompatible-Properties Arguments: A Survey" in Philo (Fall/Winter 1998). Theists, of course, will claim that, properly understood, there is no contradiction. What if they're right? What if it's logically possible for the God of traditional theism to exist? Does that mean that one cannot prove that he does not exist? No, for in order to prove that something does not exist, one need not show that it is logically impossible. One need only show is that it is epistemically unnecessary-that it is not required to explain anything. Science has proven the non-existence of many things in this way, such as phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, and the planet Vulcan. Scientific proofs, unlike logical proofs, do not establish their conclusions beyond any possibility of doubt. But they are proofs nonetheless, for they establish their conclusions beyond a reasonable doubt and that is all that is needed to justify them.

Phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, and the planet Vulcan are theoretical entities that were postulated in order to explain various phenomena. Phlogiston was postulated to explain heat, the luminiferous ether was postulated to explain the propagation of light waves through empty space, and Vulcan was postulated to explain the perturbations in the orbit of Mercury. Science has shown, however, that these phenomena can be explained without invoking these entities. By demonstrating that these entities are not needed to explain anything, science has proven that they do not exist.

God is a theoretical entity that is postulated by theists to explain various phenomena, such as the origin of the universe, the design of the universe, and the origin of living things. Modern science, however, can explain all of these phenomena without postulating the existence of God.1 In the words of Laplace, science has no need of that hypothesis.2 By demonstrating that God is not needed to explain anything, science has proven that there is no more reason to believe in the existence of God than to believe in the existence of phlogiston, the luminiferous ether, or Vulcan. This may explain why more than 90% of the world's top scientists disbelieve or doubt the existence of God.3

Scientists prefer natural explanations to supernatural ones, not because of any metaphysical bias on their part, but because natural explanations produce more understanding than supernatural ones. As Plato realized, to say that God did it is not to explain anything, but simply to offer an excuse for not having an explanation.4

The goodness of an explanation is determined by how much understanding it produces, and the amount of understanding produced by an explanation is determined by how well it systematizes and unifies our knowledge. The extent to which an explanation systematizes and unifies our knowledge can be measured by various criteria of adequacy such as simplicity (the number of assumptions made), scope (the types of phenomena explained), conservatism (fit with existing theory), and fruitfulness (ability to make successful novel predictions).

Supernatural explanations are inherently inferior to natural ones because they do not meet the criteria of adequacy as well. For example, they are usually less simple because they assume the existence of at least one additional type of entity. They usually have less scope because they don't explain how the phenomena in question are produced and thus they raise more questions than they answer. They are usually less conservative because they imply that certain natural laws have been violated. And they are usually less fruitful because they don't make any novel predictions. That is why scientists avoid them.

The realization that the traditional God of theism is not needed to explain anything-that there is nothing for him to do-has led a number of theologians to call for the rejection of this notion of god. In Why Believe in God? Michael Donald Goulder argues that the only intellectually respectable position on the god question is atheism.5 In Why Christianity Must Change or Die, Reverend Spong, former Episcopal Bishop of New Jersey, argues that the traditional theistic conception of God must be replaced by one grounded in human relationships and concerns.6 Both agree with Stephen J. Gould that religion should not be in the business of trying to explain the world.7

What if there was no plausible natural explanation for some phenomena? Would that justify the claim that god caused it? No, for our inability to provide a natural explanation may simply be due to our ignorance of the operative natural forces. Many phenomena that were once attributed to supernatural beings such as earthquakes, volcanoes, and disease can now be explained in purely natural terms. As St. Augustine realized, apparent miracles are not contrary to nature but contrary to our knowledge of nature.8

Given the inherent inferiority of supernatural explanations and the incompleteness of our knowledge, theists would be justified in offering a supernatural explanation for a phenomenon only if they could prove that it is in principle impossible to provide a natural explanation of it. In other words, to undermine the scientific proof for the non-existence of god, theists have to prove an unrestricted negative, namely, that no natural explanation of a phenomenon will be found. And that, I believe, is an unrestricted negative that no theist will ever be able to prove.



In Soviet America, you sue MPAA!
And you lifted this from where?
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Man, that was quite a well conceived, albeit lengthy discourse. Allow me to apologize, firstly, for not taking it on point by point. I have not the energy or the desire to do so but I expect TWT will. Here's what I have to say. God is an idea rooted in faith, not logic. I don't care what scientist A,B,C,or D can prove or disprove because I'm not wholly governed by logic, no machine am I. I still believe that what encompasses life and the human experience can only be described as magic. What depths of love, art, etc the human heart is capable of cannot be proven or disproven by any of those scientists. If I say "I love you" to someone the scientist can't prove one way or the other if it's true or not. He can't even clearly define what I mean but the heart knows... it's magic, plain and simple. Science is a wonderful thing but it's also responsible for many of the fallacies of man.

So, God resides in the heart and soul and spirit. Landscapes forever untouched by science.

If you doubt my love, prove me wrong



I ain't gettin' in no fryer!
I'll make it simple..

Some don't believe in things they dont see. If that's the case, then are you saying you don't believe in air?

My suggestion to you, tyler, is that you check out the Religion thread:
http://www.movieforums.net/showthread.php?threadid=1436
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Well...air is comprised of molecules that can be seen but your point is a valid one. Science is frequently overstepping it's boundaries. We cannot see the bottom of the sea, we have no equipment that goes down that far. We know not our heavenly boundaries... only that space continues further than we can measure. Taking this into consideration science dares to take on God? Science is wonderful, don't get me wrong. I owe my formerly broken body to it many times over. But can science repair a broken soul? Broken faith? A broken heart (not in the literal sense)... no it can't. Only faith and love can do this. Things science simply will never understand.



thanks. I hear what you're saying, and I understand aswell. However I disagree that things are magical, so much as just intense emotions. Ever gotten chills of adrenaline when you kissed someone, saw you fav band live, got in a fight or anything? Well those are simply your mind feeling what your body has supplied. Adrenaline. Or just deep emotion. Not sayin your wrong or anything. I just like to look at things on a realistic level. This is a tough thing to do. And it's nice to believe in things like God to bring us through stuff. And it would be nice to believe that there's a guy giving away free sports cars out in the front of your house. That don't nessesarily make it so. What I posted above was mainly an objective argument against the existence of God. Next I'll through up a more subjective argument.



The simple fact that your cells are capable of generating that adrenaline to make you feel that way is exactly what I'm talking about. We're not scientific experiments, we're living, breathing, feeling entities. Science can't explain this. Also, I personally don't use God as a crutch to get me through things. I just believe in the magic of life. You can spend your life analyzing the possibilities or you can open your heart and enjoy it. I'm not saying you're wrong either... this is what I choose to believe and experience. My heart proves it to me every day and then some... it's a lot warmer and truer than holding onto scientific theory.

BTW, keep the sports car... I'll keep the light in my heart



I still think that nothing is magic. Magic: believed to have super natural power or natural forces. I think that everything is the cause of something. Magic (for me) is too falsely explanative a word. To say that something's magic, is not to explain it, but simply an excuse for not having an explanation. Science can't explain why we do exactly what we do but it tries. It does not provide a false explanation just because there is not one found.
And I believe that spending your life examining, and thinking is enjoying it. As apposed to closing your eyes and smiling.
And what you believe may be warm, but not necessarily true. You just want to believe it is(not sayin' your wrong). To have an excuse not to think about what may be the deep dark, depressing truth. Better than scientific theory? That's for you to decide. But may I suggest that your decision be an idea, not a belief? Beliefs are far to permanent and sure. But it sounds like you've got some great ideas. It's great that we can discuss such an issue. Interesting stuff.

BTW keep your light heart… I'll keep my pursuit of truth, and sense of reality.



Originally posted by spudracer
I'll make it simple..

Some don't believe in things they dont see. If that's the case, then are you saying you don't believe in air?

My suggestion to you, tyler, is that you check out the Religion thread:
http://www.movieforums.net/showthread.php?threadid=1436
No I don't believe in "air". I believe in gases, which are "air". And I can see CO2 when it's cold and I breath. I can feel the "air" when it blows through a fan, or blows in the wind. And I believe in the matter form of gas because it's scientifically proven. Bad example sir. I doubt you fully read my post.

And my suggestion to you is that you realize this is a thread about GOD not existing. Not plainly religion.



And these guys will say that they feel God.
I myself, do not, and cannot no matter how hard I may try.
But these guys....
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I do believe there is a superior being out there in the universe controlling and monitoring us.

Wait a second.....

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I think we all know in the back of our minds god doesnt exist and there is no afterlife or heaven or any of these fun special things that happen to us. We are here for no reason or meaning so dont try to make sense of the world. It is like it is and is not controlled by any bigger force than nature. A day will come in which no more churches, and no more religion exists. A day in which we run our lives with realistic thoughts and explain things in a realistic ways. Religion is like cheating on the test of life. You take and copy all the answers from other people. These being the wrong answers from People of the past who werent as knowledged as we are today. Technologically we will advance, but not mentally until we get this idea of religion out of our heads.

Thank You



As I've said before: I think what makes religion so important, and why I myself am religious, is not because of a figure [GOD] but because of the basic principles, morals and decency they preach.



In Soviet America, you sue MPAA!
Your argument is logical, but proves nothing. Your logical explaination only holds true for physical manifestations, not thoughts or unmanifested entities, which god could be, no way of proving it.

Your argument of logic can be turned against you quiet easily. The existence of a god, or gods, is not impossible(it could be so, logically wouldnt be so, but it COULD be so.), and thus comes this cycle:
If nothing is impossible, then it is impossible to be impossible, thus making something impossible. Contradicting itself in the long run. This statement holds true, but only holds true for phyisical manifestations, not mental or ideological. I think we all know (or assume, or think, or whatever you want to call it) that god is not physical, or we could look above and see him. So since he isn't a phyisical manifestation, then logical contradictions like the ones you have presented do not hold true, in the sense that you presented them.

Now many people on the board no I don't believe in God, and if you didn't before you do now, but your argument is all fluff, in the end holds no true 'fact' to it.



As I've said before: I think what makes religion so important, and why I myself am religious, is not because of the basic principles, morals and decency they preach.
ok if it is NOT because of the basic principles, morals and decency they preach then what makes religion so important?



The idea of God was spawned in a time when scientific theory was non existent. God or Gods were developed in the heads of Man as a way of explaining all that was a mystery. Life has always, and will always be confusing. And even the most intellectually secure, can lose site of the truth in place for what they desire to be the truth. And who would not desire the existence of an all knowing superior being. In short, if you believe in God and praise him, you receive an eternal “life”(which cannot exist without death) that is perfect in everyway. When life does not add up, you can push it all out of your head with the words “It’s god’s will”. You are here for a purpose, and God has a plan for you (which fulfills mankind’s greatest search, which is for meaning.) And you get to be a part of the biggest club there is. 95% of the world’s population believes in a supreme being. However 95% of the world’s population believed that the world was flat at one time as well. And it was just a matter of time before science caught up with this ignorance of man. And even though science has done the same with the theory of God, people will always fear and desire. Therefore “God” and religion will always be around.
And many of you are so helplessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
God is in theory a male. But I ask, why would god have a gender? Does God procreate? God is considered male because his creators were male. Men where the holders of all power and authority in the time where Gods where prophesized. And by who? Men. All prophecies of God where delivered by men. So go figure the God they represented was a guy as well. They theory of God’s gender is a ridicules one.

God, in (Christian) theory created man in his divine image. And since God was created by man, who better to have him be behind? It’s very convenient. We are the superior form of life on this planet intellectually. We are not the largest nor the fastest, nor the strongest nor the most ecologically balanced. In fact, God’s perfect creatures are and have destroyed many species, and the perfect world on which we live. We are not a miracle, we are a curse. We destroy, and consume, and then relocate and do it all over again. There is another organism that carries the same habit. A virus. We are no different. Just bigger, and wear cloths. We have no more a soul than a tree or a cat.
And why should we? We are no more special.

Hell in theory is a place where you burn in agony forever. Think about that for a second. Forever. You will be in complete agony and anguish hating every moment and it will never end. That’s a scary thought. Compare that to living forever in complete happiness, with God in Heaven. Maybe it’s just me but I’d prefere heaven. The thought of possible “Hell” is such an intimidating one that, it can scare many into worshiping God. If so than it’s not a belief, it’s precaution. I find that many believe in God just in case. If God is really as great and merciful as he is said to be why might he send a morally good Budist or Jew to such a horrible place. What if Adolf Hitler read the Bible, and praised Christ everyday of his life? Would he go to heaven? If God is as allknowing as said to be such a process for fate determination would not take place. What would happen to an unbabtised baby is it were to die from birth complications. Would God send a baby to burn forever? Simple questions like these are danced around by the Catholic church. They refuse to take a position on anything.

Homosexuality in theory is wrong and intrinsically evil. This is yet another example of the puritan idealism that still remains in our Church. Hating a homosexual for being what they are, is just as bad as hating a black man for his skin tone. A position like this not only makes the Catholic church hypocritical, but a hate group. Like it or not the church is an indirect hate group, and until they once again revise their status on something like this, that’s how they shall remain.

God seems to have made contact with people less and less as science developed. Where is God these days? Did he split? Did he make a new civalisations? No. He simply never existed at all. God is an imaginary crutch. He gives people closure. A false answer is better than no answer at all. Many won’t admit it but they agree. Deep down, we all want meaning to our lives, we just have to trick ourselves into believing we’ve found one.

.

In theory God always seemed to inhabit(or have created) earth. This is also a false convenience. How could god have created the earth in 7 days, if a day is based on how long it takes the earth to rotate completely? And when god said let there be light, what language did he speak that in? And who was he speaking to. And if god wanted light, he must have known what it was. But how could he have known if it did not exist? God for being supreme, and all powerful, sure seems awfully interested in this little concoction of his. Witch is quite pathetic compared to other planets in our solar system alone. I’m sure any God would have made something much larger for his master work, and the home of his perfect precious creatures.


Why do you believe in God? If no imidiate answer comes to mind, your reason may be conformity. (I stress “may”) Many children grow up being spoon fed the bible. They go to church, and everyone around them believes in “God”. This creates an adiquite bass to keep us in a cage of conformity until we’re old and don’t even bother to ask questions because it has become to deeply a part of our lives. It is my idea that your teen years are your only years for true enlightenment.

So is ignorance bliss? Is wishful thinking ok as long as it makes you happy? Well in my opinion; no. I would rather get dragged into a gas chamber knowing it’s a gas chamber, then enter thinking it’s a shower. I wish to face the truth, and not make up answers I have not yet found. I may be the odd man out, but I will be my own man. I wish to stand up and say: No I’m not going to walk trough life in ignorant happiness. If your leg is wounded, by all means pick up that crutch and shuffle your way home. I will walk on my legs, wounded or not. I may stumble or fall, but I’ll pick my self and continue. And I may be home late, but I my journey there will be one of dignity



I ain't gettin' in no fryer!
How do you think you came to be?

Gases didn't create you, life created you. Life creates life. Rocks didn't bombard each other, gases didn't escape, and an explosion never happened.



i belive in god because of comfort. I gives me something to hope for after death. also because my parents have told me to belive in him.
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In Soviet America, you sue MPAA!
Originally posted by spudracer

Gases didn't create you, life created you. Life creates life. Rocks didn't bombard each other, gases didn't escape, and an explosion never happened.
Well then you might as well not believe in gravity.

I'd just like to say well done tyler!



I ain't gettin' in no fryer!
What created gravity? So when you see a bill with In God We Trust printed on the back you throw it away because you don't believe in such nonsense?



In Soviet America, you sue MPAA!
Lets take a look at it your way then?

What created gravity? God created gravity. What created God? nothing, he was always there.

If he was always there, why can't gravity of always been there?