What do you think of the movie Parasite (2019)?

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Regarding Scorsese, I think it's less about his own film getting a theatrical release and more about how the state of modern cinema doesn't allow for too many films like it to exist, especially when the same amount of money usually ends up going into something like a CGI remake of The Lion King. Gets hard to shrug that off as "what the people want" when their other options are getting phased out so they don't really have that much of a choice anymore.
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There was an interesting quote on the relationship between filmmaking and capitalism by Jean-Marie Straub (an infamous Communist director). I wish I could find it now. Not that I agree with it, or anything, but I'd love to see Yoda respond to that.
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Regarding Scorsese, I think it's less about his own film getting a theatrical release and more about how the state of modern cinema doesn't allow for too many films like it to exist, especially when the same amount of money usually ends up going into something like a CGI remake of The Lion King.
I'm not sure what "allow" is meant to mean in the above context. His film does exist, and lots of totally bizarre films exist. It's probably easier to make something super weird than ever before.

Gets hard to shrug that off as "what the people want" when their other options are getting phased out so they don't really have that much of a choice anymore.
I think this represents some confusion about causality. What is getting "phased out" and, more importantly, why? Why do you think entertainment options are arbitrarily chosen and then mindlessly accepted, rather than specifically offered up in higher or lower quantities based on what audiences demonstrably prefer when given choices (of which we seemingly have more than ever)?



There was an interesting quote on the relationship between filmmaking and capitalism by Jean-Marie Straub (an infamous Communist director). I wish I could find it now. Not that I agree with it, or anything, but I'd love to see Yoda respond to that.
Haven't heard of it, but if you find it, I'd love to hear it.

Most quotes in this vein, though, where an artist critiques a form of government or economic system, I usually reconcile by just noting that being artistically brilliant doesn't mean you necessarily understand much about how the world works. A lot of these people are functionally insulated from these kinds of questions.



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Well, they guy likes to blabber like in the video below:



He also said that if he wasn't making films, he'd be a terrorist. xD

I can enjoy a film that doesn't jibe by my worldview
This got me interested. Can you name some films that you don't agree with worldview-wise, but love (or at least like)?



This got me interested. Can you name some films that you don't agree with worldview-wise, but love (or at least like)?
Love is a high bar, but without thinking too hard, I think Terminator 2 has a laughable misanthropy, but it's a great movie. I think High Fidelity glamorizes a certain kind of inward, fandom-focused self-indulgence and self-obsession that I really dislike, but I find it very entertaining, clever, and quotable. Heck, I thought Fahrenheit 9/11 was pretty well made.

When I said that I was thinking more of a lot of the background stuff, though. I think very little of highly polemical films in general so I probably don't have too many overtly contradictory political films on my favorites list, for the same reason I don't have any overtly conservative films on my favorites list. But a lot of them treat various cultural viewpoints that I don't share as obvious or assumed. The most obvious and frequent being some version of the corporation always being the bad guy, usually comically so.

And there is always the constant knowledge that virtually everyone making the films I love thinks views that I hold are horrible, which isn't something you can totally forget, and isn't something more progressive people will really be able to relate to or properly understand.



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Thanks for the reply. I haven't seen those films except for Terminator 2 (and even that one years, years ago), so I can't really comment on that, but I find myself far more forgiving and lenient to older movies that do not fit my worldview. For example, I absolutely loved Triumph of the Will - needless to say for its technical brilliance and an opportunity to put myself in the position of an average German during that time - and not for its Nazi message. The point is, if somebody made a Nazi film nowadays, I'd have a much harder time ignoring the fact it's Nazi. Yep it's a pretty hardcore example, but I can't think of anything less extreme at the moment.

Then there's the same thing in music. I love the music of Peste Noire, and even play their songs on guitar, but I disagree with their Nationalist message. I'm not bothered by the fact I enjoy their music, but I don't want to be associated with them in any way other than "that's a band whose music I enjoy".

I guess I just try to focus more on the art than the actual politics behind it, although sometimes it's hard to do so, if a work of art is good it will defend itself even if it pushes rather disgusting or at least disagreeable notions. Still, I'd probably absolutely hate a modern film that does not correspond to my insights about the world, and pushes its false (at least in my opinion) message.

But the last bit of what you wrote seemed like you thought yourself not very progressive. Why is that? Are you rather conservative in your outlook on euthanasia, abortion etc.? I don't mean to start yet another discussion on these topics, just curious what exactly would make those filmmakers you love hold your views as so horrible.



Thanks for the reply. I haven't seen those films except for Terminator 2 (and even that one years, years ago), so I can't really comment on that, but I find myself far more forgiving and lenient to older movies that do not fit my worldview. For example, I absolutely loved Triumph of the Will - needless to say for its technical brilliance and an opportunity to put myself in the position of an average German during that time - and not for its Nazi message. The point is, if somebody made a Nazi film nowadays, I'd have a much harder time ignoring the fact it's Nazi. Yep it's a pretty hardcore example, but I can't think of anything less extreme at the moment.
I think I get what you mean. I think it's probably common to most people, too. I think this is a reflection of the natural human tendency to inflate the importance of our current situation and feelings, as well as the fact that there are more things actively fighting about current issues in front of us relentlessly, which makes it harder to respond thoughtfully or dispassionately. But objectionable things deep in our history have had time to sit and be processed, and can be considered without the din of all that background noise. And politics shift enough that usually the "conservative" or "liberal" analogs of the day don't align neatly over current conceptions of those terms, moving more triangularly than linearly, so it'd be hard to think of some objectionable group of the past as just being the historical version of X.

Then there's the same thing in music. I love the music of Peste Noire, and even play their songs on guitar, but I disagree with their Nationalist message. I'm not bothered by the fact I enjoy their music, but I don't want to be associated with them in any way other than "that's a band whose music I enjoy".
Yeah, it's very prominent in music, too, for sure. Lyrics can be very opinionated, or even insipid. It sometimes makes me like bans whose lyrics are effectively nonsense, simply because I have the option to take little notice of them and enjoy the music itself.

I guess I just try to focus more on the art than the actual politics behind it, although sometimes it's hard to do so, if a work of art is good it will defend itself even if it pushes rather disgusting or at least disagreeable notions. Still, I'd probably absolutely hate a modern film that does not correspond to my insights about the world, and pushes its false (at least in my opinion) message.
Yeah, it's a tough question. Obviously it's reasonable to judge a film's message, but there's also an important critical role in separating message from art in some sense. There's probably no perfect, all-situation posture to it.

But the last bit of what you wrote seemed like you thought yourself not very progressive. Why is that? Are you rather conservative in your outlook on euthanasia, abortion etc.? I don't mean to start yet another discussion on these topics, just curious what exactly would make those filmmakers you love hold your views as so horrible.
Well, the people in Hollywood are pretty liberal by my country's standards, moreso than most "normal" progressives, so I don't think I'd have to be especially conservative to be wildly at odds with many of them. But yes, I'm fairly conservative overall on most issues. I'd be happy to discuss them in another context at some point.



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I think I get what you mean.
Not that I inherently disagree with what you wrote, but apart from the more hardcore examples like the Nazi one, I think it's just easier to brush off some little hints of backwards thinking and conservative worldview seen in old films by simply saying "oh, it's just old and quaint, of course it's not going to be very progressive". But with newer films it makes much more sense to actually demand them to be progressive, or at least not be regressive. Still, just an example that this is not really black and white would be me considering myself progessive, but still kind of disliking many feminist movies of today, because I think their message is too forced (among other problems). I don't even mind misogyny as long as it's not a very serious movie tackling social issues that tries to sell out as posing some serious truths about our world and making some claims that are misogynistic. I find it kind of funny some Letterboxd users think it's their duty to fight off every little sign of unprogressivenes in every film.

Anyway, I'd say I'm a progressive, but with a conservative soul. That conversation we had before, about what we can learn from art - watch a Japanese movie Keiko (1979) . It didn't make me learn anything, but it surely gave me quite a slap of wokeness. It also aligns with my motto: "Live and let live". And what can I say - the ending is absolutely heartbreaking.

It sometimes makes me like bans whose lyrics are effectively nonsense, simply because I have the option to take little notice of them and enjoy the music itself.
Yeah, I listen to many non-English language bands (Peste Noire are French) which makes it much easier to not really focus on lyrics. Even with English, if I don't focus on understanding the lyrics, I probably will only automatically understand a small part of it. I guess my mind needs to actively focus on the task of actively listening to the song to be able to get lyrics that aren't in my native tongue - dunno if this is normal or if I'm retarded.

Well, the people in Hollywood are pretty liberal by my country's standards
I'm quite liberal by my country's standards, too. Haha. It sometimes scares me how conservative some people still are.

But yes, I'm fairly conservative overall on most issues. I'd be happy to discuss them in another context at some point.
Maybe, but I'm not very good at making my point across, tend to digress a lot, and also as much as I have opinions on societal issues, I don't really have any on i.e. economics as I don't really know enough about it to make any well-supported opinion.

One last thing, just try to forget everything you read in this thread and watch Parasite with a clean state of mind! It's a really surprising and well-made film. Too good to be deemed bad even if you don't agree with its statements.

Okay, I'm off to watch more films!!!



Not that I inherently disagree with what you wrote, but apart from the more hardcore examples like the Nazi one, I think it's just easier to brush off some little hints of backwards thinking and conservative worldview seen in old films by simply saying "oh, it's just old and quaint, of course it's not going to be very progressive". But with newer films it makes much more sense to actually demand them to be progressive, or at least not be regressive.
True in all ideological directions, actually, yeah. You can't tell off dead people, but you can argue with the living ones. That's probably part of it, too.

I find it kind of funny some Letterboxd users think it's their duty to fight off every little sign of unprogressivenes in every film.
Yeah, I've said this in previous discussions about what it means to be a critic, but while considering a message is important and reasonable, there certainly exists a subset of people who describe themselves as critics, ostensibly reviewing art, but for whom the primary (or sometimes only?) concern is how well the art serves as propaganda for a particular worldview.

I'm quite liberal by my country's standards, too. Haha. It sometimes scares me how conservative some people still are.
Well, I don't think I'd change your mind on much, if anything, but I think if I were able to sit down with most people who feel this ways and have a focused and productive conversation, most would at least understanding how a reasonable or thoughtful person could think those things. That's usually my realistic goal in talking about them with people who feel very differently, at least.

Maybe, but I'm not very good at making my point across, tend to digress a lot, and also as much as I have opinions on societal issues, I don't really have any on i.e. economics as I don't really know enough about it to make any well-supported opinion.
Sir, this is the Internet. Not being informed is not an adequate reason not to have an opinion.

One last thing, just try to forget everything you read in this thread and watch Parasite with a clean state of mind! It's a really surprising and well-made film. Too good to be deemed bad even if you don't agree with its statements.
No worries, I'm determined to see it. I've heard good things, and besides, I suspect the message is not quite as clear or overt as maybe implied. But I'll find out for myself, regardless. It sounds like a fine film, message aside, and I'm always up for those.



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Well I'm still trying to process the ending, and I still want to ask, how come the dad felt that living in a basement where he will never be ablet to bath again, and have trouble sneaking down food, would be better than just going to prison, where you can still bathe and get food?



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Well I'm still trying to process the ending, and I still want to ask, how come the dad felt that living in a basement where he will never be ablet to bath again, and have trouble sneaking down food, would be better than just going to prison, where you can still bathe and get food?
Because it's allegorical. The ending is a symbol for the hope of the lower class - the son wanting to earn enough money to buy the house and take care of his father.

It wouldn't work if the son was staring at a prison.



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SPOILER


Oh yes, I understand that it's allegorical, but what was Ki-Taek's personal reason for choosing to spend the rest of his life in a basement over prison?

Ki-Taek does not know he is in a movie, and would not make decisions based on allegories. When a person commits murder and has to go on the run, they make the decisions that are best for them, not decisions that would allegorically effect the story they are in. So why did Ki-Taek choose the basement over prison, when the basement would just be worse for him?



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WARNING: "Parasite" spoilers below
Well, that’s it: he is not choosing to live the rest of his life in a basement cell, only until the thing blows over in a couple of weeks or months. Both he and his son have retreated into fantasy at the movie's end. The other basement dweller gives him a huge revelation when he asks how the hell can you live down here? And he says most people live their lives submerged, like for instance, people living in semi-basement apartments are already half way there.

Notice when they fold the pizza boxes, he doesn’t bother to fold them correctly he just powers through the pile, but the Franchise owner says a quarter of the boxes are wrong, meaning all the ones he did. Notice he can’t drive without rubber-necking. Working is something Mr. Kim is not good at. He says several times he has a great game plan, but confesses in the gym he has no plan and just lets life happen to him, that way he can never be disappointed.



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Oh okay, but if things will blow over in a few months, and Ki-Taek can just leave then, then why is the son wanting to save up to purchase the house, if all he has to do is just wait a few months for things to blow over, and his dad can just come home then, if that's the case?



Most quotes in this vein, though, where an artist critiques a form of government or economic system, I usually reconcile by just noting that being artistically brilliant doesn't mean you necessarily understand much about how the world works.
It always amuses me to see someone that completely rounds everything there is in “the world”, like you know what the world is, by the “world” I don’t just mean human relationships, it’s like you can simply describe it with words, and it seems your “world” is your opinion of the most adequate system, but that is just your opinion of what you think is most adequate or the means to get there. “Your ancestors” builded the pyramids, no one remembers who they are, no one cares, they didn’t carried there riches to the after life, they got robbed. Those artist who you think don’t know how the world works might have a different view of what the world is, that’s why they’re artists in the first place and not politicians trying to reach immortality; they’ll be robbed.



It always amuses me to see someone that completely rounds everything there is in “the world”, like you know what the world is, by the “world” I don’t just mean human relationships, it’s like you can simply describe it with words
It always amuses me when people take obvious shorthand literally for no reason other than to fabricate a criticism.

and it seems your “world” is your opinion of the most adequate system, but that is just your opinion of what you think is most adequate or the means to get there.
Well, no, that's what it would be if none of us had any information about what various systems do in practice, but of course we have tons of information about that. In this case, a veritable mountain of evidence, which you seem not to have much reason to doubt other than by calling into question the very concept of evidence.

It's not productive or useful to trawl threads for statements you don't like only to reply with some blanket dismissal, particularly when it's applied so selectively; note all the statements and claims that don't get this treatment, even though it's universally applicable.

If you actually want to have that discussion, about the abstract nature of truth, kindly dig up one of my several posts about it in another, more appropriate thread, and reply there. I'll be happy to engage on the topic. I'm not particularly interested in swatting down these drive-by skepticisms, though, where you just fire the same opening salvo and bail, content to have simply registered some vague dissent, rather than doing the hard work of really examining the evidence trying to understand why people believe different things, rather than just saying they do and throwing up your hands as if that renders the whole thing a wash.



Bright light. Bright light. Uh oh.
So, I'm trying to process this - ironpony doesn't understand time travel, allegory, fantasy or real life?
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Oh I don't think it's that I don't understand time travel, or allegories, when I ask the questions. It is the character motivation. When I asked about the time travel movie before, I understood the science of the time travel twists, I just didn't understand why the characters were doing it. It's about character motivation, not time travel, or in this case, allegories.



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I have a conspiracy theory. ironpony actually understood the movie perfectly, but made this thread (just like many other threads) to provoke in-depth discussions.