'Democracy' Never Meant What People Think It Means

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'Democracy' as such is invariably traced to the Greeks, specifically to classical Athens. Typically it is translated as 'rule' or 'leadership of the people,' with the root 'demos' being rendered as "people" and the second root 'kratos' being rendered as 'rule' or leadership.'

In fact, while 'demos' came to mean 'the people,' it originally referred (as in Homer) to those who collectively controlled a territorial unit, specifically, to the aristocratic warband that surrounded a Mycenean king or chieftain. In other words, 'demos' refers not to the people as a whole, but to the army. Which of course, is fitting, because the voting citizenry of the Athenian democracy consisted solely of the men of the army, the propertied men who could afford the full panoply of the hoplite infantryman.

As for 'kratos,' the rendering 'rule' or 'leadership' softens its actual meaning, which is 'power' or 'force' (specifically, force of arms).

In a literal sense, therefore, 'democracy' ultimately means 'the [coercive] power of the army.'

Not much has changed, really.



I got for good luck my black tooth.
Interesting. Just out of curiosity...where'd you read that?
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"Like all dreamers, Steven mistook disenchantment for truth."



I was reading Loeb side-by-side some time ago of the Iliad when I came across the Homeric use of that root, and it reminded me of a comment an old professor had made about the softening of 'kratos' in modern renderings of 'democracy.'

The little mini-essay emerged out of a discussion of feminism on another forum (long story).

Interestingly, there is some evidence to suggest that 'democracy' was originally coined by opponents of the Athenian democracy (to suggest that it was, indeed, something on the order of mob rule by the army, underlain by naked force rather than aristocratic legitimacy).



there's a frog in my snake oil
The Asterix comics taught me that woman couldn't enter the Roman games - and they sure couldn't vote in Athens either. And neither could the 'artisans' or the slaves.

Yeah, it's pretty clear that Athenian democracy's ideals only vaguely overlap with our modern idealisations of democracy. But they've got a lot of simularities too. The 'rule of mob' element has come more to the fore, but its still very-much tempered by 'top down' power group action.

Heigh ho - better than nothing

Could be better tho, for sure.

Originally Posted by Purandara88
Interestingly, there is some evidence to suggest that 'democracy' was originally coined by opponents of the Athenian democracy (to suggest that it was, indeed, something on the order of mob rule by the army, underlain by naked force rather than aristocratic legitimacy).
Heh, makes me think of the 'sophist' term, applied to the 'spin-doctors' who flourished amongst Athen's legal courts. Robert Pirsig argues that this was a damning bit of revisionism placed on the more experimental thinkers of the time (IE the guys who believed in 'change as the only constant', and other such precepts, which contrasted with the 'Socratean' movement towards logical positivism).

Whatever the case, i imagine the lawcourts were as dirty-dealing, and rhetoric-ridden, as they are now.

And hell, the Athenian period of democracy was sandwiched by 'oligarchy' periods i believe - so it's not like it was the worst gig in town. Potentially
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Certainly this is interesting, but many words of current English evolve to mean something different than their origins. The obvious barbs intended in this post are illuminating and actually help to reveal your true nature. You know what I mean, and others do also. Whatever.
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Yeah, it's pretty clear that Athenian democracy's ideals only vaguely overlap with our modern idealisations of democracy. But they've got a lot of simularities too. The 'rule of mob' element has come more to the fore, but its still very-much tempered by 'top down' power group action.
I would agree with both assessments.

I also think that democracy, even more than other political structures, is essentially the sum of its symbols. I'm not a fan, which, I suppose, is why I find it intriguing and worthwhile to 'deconstruct' those symbols, so to speak.

nd hell, the Athenian period of democracy was sandwiched by 'oligarchy' periods i believe - so it's not like it was the worst gig in town. Potentially
I dunno, Athens was pretty much destroyed from within by the stupid decisions made to placate the mob. Athens was built to greatness under an oligarchy, and was run into the ground in less than a century by 'democracy.'



there's a frog in my snake oil
C'mon D. What has he said? Democracy was imperfect before, and it's still not perfect now. No great barb. Just a history lesson. Always worthwhile



there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by Purandara88
I also think that democracy, even more than other political structures, is essentially the sum of its symbols. I'm not a fan, which, I suppose, is why I find it intriguing and worthwhile to 'deconstruct' those symbols, so to speak.
The question then would be, what is your alternative?

[I want a big post here. Big post]



Nah, you do not get my meaning in your strawguard post Gols, but thats okay . Nothing he has said in this thread equals to my statement here being justified, it is the overall vibeof his overall stance. If this were the only thread by P', then well hey all well and good. I know you get where I am coming from, but it is all cool, maybe I am wrong. I have been plenty of times before.



Originally Posted by Golgot
The question then would be, what is your alternative?

[I want a big post here. Big post]
A government of me

Sorry to disappoint.

At a more serious level, I don't think there is an 'ideal' government, but I do think that aristocratic rule of small polities is probably the most stable and least intrusive form of government, which is why, historically, they have been the most common expression of 'the state.'



there's a frog in my snake oil
I know the man likes to rip and thread D. But in fairness, he provided history, which ain't no strawman on its own terms. I understand your desire to rip back tho.

Originally Posted by Pure-Hate
A government of me

Sorry to disappoint.
Heh, rubbish.

Stability is vital, but so is progression.

Try again. Until you do, the mob rules



I suppose it's easy to 'deflate' an argument if you 'prick' the jokes and ignore the argument.



Originally Posted by Golgot

And the additions are sooooooo far from a thesis of good living.
Evidence?



What's all this talk of 7th "ignoring" an "argument"? The initial post here is an opinion surrounded by a lesson in philology. It breaks down the root of the word, not what it means in a modern context, nor the idea it embodies. Not that Gol hasn't tried to spark such a discussion, of course.



Originally Posted by Yoda
What's all this talk of 7th "ignoring" an "argument"? The initial post here is an opinion surrounded by a lesson in philology. It breaks down the root of the word, not what it means in a modern context, nor the idea it embodies. Not that Gol hasn't tried to spark such a discussion, of course.
Gol and I both edited posts after the other replied to them.



there's a frog in my snake oil
Originally Posted by Purandara88
At a more serious level, I don't think there is an 'ideal' government, but I do think that aristocratic rule of small polities is probably the most stable and least intrusive form of government, which is why, historically, they have been the most common expression of 'the state.'
Okaaay, we both edited our posts. Here's my response to both of them. ( <--- edited-in smilie now that i've seen your recent post. -EXTRA EDIT- And yeah C, he was talking about a barb of mine that i removed )

The evidence you provide is that of past and current social stabilities. Viscious, cunning, top-down control is definitely the best way to maintain such a thing. In the short term. In the long term, societies have embraced, and need, change. Extreme examples of dicatorial control stifle this impulse. The ones we currently have in place gleefully convince the populace that they have control, but actually still provide leeway for new ideas.

It ain't even socialism, but it's a better system than the 'aristos know best' thesis that you've laid down so far.

You need to be a bit more cunning than that



If nothing else I never "ignore" when I feel like I should speak......certainly I have gained that much of a rep at least. I am going back to my Starship Trooper mentality now and will see youse guys in the morgan ...fraulines r cool I say.