'Democracy' Never Meant What People Think It Means

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Originally Posted by Purandara88
No, I didn't.
Yes, you did. Direct quotes, with sources:

ME:
Why is it good to exist?

YOU:
The will to survive is built in, an inherent part of that existence.

ME:
You're describing instinct, not logic or nobility.

YOU:
Will and desire are likewise inherent to being, and thus of inherent value

ME:
And why is everything "inherent to being" necessarily of value?

YOU:
Simple, that which is inherent to being is fundamental to existence itself.

After all this, you are still left with the baseless presupposition that existence is of value. Why? Because your instincts tell you it is. That is what is behind the curtain of your alleged "logic" and nobility: an instinct which, like any instinct, simply desires to be satiated. Your personal impulses do compromise a reasoned, rational argument, let alone justification for the eradication of billions of people.

Originally Posted by Purandara88
I pointed out that your concept of 'value' has no place in a purely material universe. The 'value' of instinct is purely mechanical - it preserves existence, which is why it is a part of existence in the first place.
That's why it exists. Not why it is good, or desirable, or why people should be expected to sacrifice their lives for it.

Originally Posted by Purandara88
The internal logic of a closed system (like the universe) is always going to be 'circular' in the sense that it is ultimately self-referrential.
That's right. The sensible thing to do, then (apart from renouncing all this silliness), is to follow your materialism through to its logical conclusion and stop trying to pretend that a logical reason for your goals exists. It doesn't.



I've never argued that logic should override instinct, just that it should guide our various instincts in complimentary directions (for instance, by widening the temporal horizon of the altruistic impulse, which is a subsidiary of the larger survival instinct).



That's why it exists. Not why it is good, or desirable, or why people should be expected to sacrifice their lives for it.
'Good' in a material universe is entirely mechanical, in this case, continued survival. The instinct to preserve the species creates its own imperative, independent of any 'good' or 'reason' or 'purpose.' Any other course leads either to premature death or to psychological dislocation.

Is it arbitrary? Yes, but it's an arbitrariness of reality, rather than of construction (like gravity or the speed of light).



Err, this is not an argument that can continue.

I bow to your superior logic. Next time, I'll stake out a defensible position when I'm looking to amuse myself.



Originally Posted by Purandara88
'Democracy' as such is invariably traced to the Greeks, specifically to classical Athens. Typically it is translated as 'rule' or 'leadership of the people,' with the root 'demos' being rendered as "people" and the second root 'kratos' being rendered as 'rule' or leadership.'

In fact, while 'demos' came to mean 'the people,' it originally referred (as in Homer) to those who collectively controlled a territorial unit, specifically, to the aristocratic warband that surrounded a Mycenean king or chieftain. In other words, 'demos' refers not to the people as a whole, but to the army. Which of course, is fitting, because the voting citizenry of the Athenian democracy consisted solely of the men of the army, the propertied men who could afford the full panoply of the hoplite infantryman.

As for 'kratos,' the rendering 'rule' or 'leadership' softens its actual meaning, which is 'power' or 'force' (specifically, force of arms).

In a literal sense, therefore, 'democracy' ultimately means 'the [coercive] power of the army.'

Not much has changed, really.
Damnit! I missed a great argument!!
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