Conventions of a Western

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Hey everybody, new poster here. I'm doing audience research for my Media coursework, and specifically trying to gain audience feedback on the genre of Westerns.

EDIT: REPHRASE
What I'd like to know is what conventions do you, as a person, typically associate with this genre? Setting, locations, props, Mise-en-scène...what elements stand out the most in your mind when you think "Western"...
I am not looking for general information, but rather personal opinion.

The more responses I get, the better. Thanks in advance.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
What are you looking for? Western are set in the part of the United States that became part of manifest destiny, not part of the original colonies, usually in the mid to late eighteen hundreds, but extending as far as the early 1900s in Westerns like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and The Wild Bunch, which deals with modern technology's impact on the vanishing West. Some westerns deal with the struggle between cattlemen and homesteaders, others with the railroad, other the struggle with Indians. some with outlaws, others with gunfighters, or a combination of the above. They also aren't very popular these days, science fiction set in the future rather than the past has replaced it as the genre of choice for many action fans.



You can easily find stuff like this on Google. If it was something difficult or hard to find, I'd help, but this is as easy as it gets, so I'll be the responsible adult for once and say: do your homework by yourself.



I'm going to disregard the previous comment and explain, for you seem to have grossly misunderstood me! I am not looking for general information, but rather audience feedback; something to back-up statements I may make about what is typically found in a Western. I would like personal opinions.

Let's try again.



Bright light. Bright light. Uh oh.
The homework is to get people's responses. We've had a lot of these requests before. Some people like to help and some don't. If it just comes off Google, it's not really the result of asking a question and getting a response. I'm sure the person can and has gone elsewhere but I'll add something to what will said.

Westerns often involve a man (or sometimes, a woman) and how he/she relates to the land. Does the person see the West as a place of freedom or something which has to be tamed? Does he believe that he will make a fortune by commercializing it or by robbing and killing people? Sometimes the last two also intersect. Is the West so wild because of the Native Americans or because of the settlers who brought vice and are now running lawless towns?

Westerns often cause some people to make a tough decision. Do they have to stand up to the "bad guys" or is it better for them, their family and their town to get away before the violent confrontation explodes? Westerns can be action films, comedies, character studies, epics, historical dramas, satires and just about any other genre. Yes, there have been western horror films (Grim Prairie Tales) and sci-fi films (Westworld) too. I will extend the time frame of the western all the way up until the present day though. Such films as Lonely are the Brave, Hud, The Last Picture Show qualify as such, but I think there's an even more recent batch which would include the likes of Brokeback Mountain, The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada, No Country for Old Men and There Will Be Blood.

If you have any more specific questions, go ahead and ask those.
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Like Will and others have already said, the Western is too big to put into some simple cubbyhole. What are you looking for in it, or do you know?

Westerns don't have to be set in the old West--any frontier will do, especially space. Outland (1981) is High Noon set in space. Star Wars is a kissing cousin to every Gene Autry or Roy Rogers Saturday matinee Western where the good guys convinced the local townspeople to stand up to the bad outlaw gang. Avatar is basically Clint Eastwood's Man With No Name riding into town in a space version of A Fistful of Dollars, pretending to be on one side while helping another.

The ocean is another frontier that can stand in for Westerns. Is a film about people in an underwater city having to fight off sharks whose intelligence has been genetically enhanced all that different from a western town or outpost having to fight off Native Americans who have a superior knowledge of their environment and put that knowledge to use in their attacks?

Sometimes Westerns are disguised as latter-day dramas, as in Bad Day at Black Rock, which is a drama of prejudice and murder set in the modern west, but still a basic cowboy yarn at heart, with the stranger riding into town to right wrongs against all odds.

The biggest difference that I see in Westerns of today vs. the Westerns I grew up with in the 1940s-1950s can be demonstrated by viewing the original black-and-white 3:10 to Yuma (1952) starring Glenn Ford and Van Heflin vs. the recent widescreen, colored remake with Crowe. The original shows the stage holdup and killing, the capture of the head of the outlaw gang (Ford) and the stopover at Heflin's ranch where the outlaw is switched from the stagecoach to one destination to go by horse to another destination. At the Heflin ranch, the outlaw has supper with the family, including two sons, one preteen and the other in his early teens. The teenager in the original looks like a child, as did most 14-15, even 16-year-old boys in the 1950s. In the remake, the teenager is as tall as his dad and needs a shave. In the original, the boys are respectful of their dad (as most of us guys were back at that time), proud of his role in capturing the outlaw, but worried about the risk he runs in taking the outlaw in. Van Heflin's character mentions having fought in the Civil War but makes no big deal of it--as was the case of a lot of dads in the early 1950s who had fought in World War II. In the remake, the teenaged son is not only disrespectful but downright antagonistic to his dad who he knows (god knows how or why) shot himself to get out of frontline duty during the war. The dad is a coward and failure and therefore by modern standards there's no reason for any of his family to love and respect him or give a damn whether he lives or dies while trying to get enough money to sustain his pathetic ranch a little longer.

In the original film, no time is spent on the trail. They're seen leaving the ranch and arriving in town where they are to take the train to Yuma. Most of the film takes place in the small hotel room where charming bad guy Ford tries to talk Heflin into taking a bribe to let him walk away instead of dying in the dirt in an unsuccessful attempt to take him to the train. Gunplay is at a minimum; dialogue, drama, and suspense are at a maximum. The remake lingers on the trail where they encounter such PC images as dishonest whites taking advantage of the poor ignorant Chinese, and a shoot-em-up with warring Indians in which Crowe demonstrates his superior abilities. It's all action and MTV fast editing.

In the original, stageline-owner Butterfield manages to hire 3-4 men to help stand off the outlaw gang, but when the outlaws threaten "quit or die," they quit. In the remake, the outlaws say they will let them walk away but then gun them down for no reason, although it's "common knowledge" today that killing one terrorist will just make 3-4 more from the family members he leaves behind. If the people are willing to quit, what besides a street-gang mentality would justify killing them?

In the original, people won't help the good guys, but they don't help the outlaws either. In the remake, the outlaws (having just gunned down 4 guys they promised to let go) now tells the town they'll pay them to shoot the good guys, and of course the townspeople start blasting away, burning more powder than during the entire Civil War. Illustrating, I guess, the modern conviction that the average people on the street will do anything--even murder each other--for money.

In the original film, Heflin does the right thing, succeeds with the assistance of Ford in another version of The Code of the West, the rains come, everyone is happy with Ford convinced he'll again break out of Yuma prison. In the remake, the father makes a half-ass but ultimately unsuccessful attempt to get Crowe on the train and gets killed in the process. But then Crowe for no apparent reason, kills his own gang and takes himself to prison. What's the point of all that?

Basically, the main difference is that the original film is shaped toward the entertainment values and mores of the 1950s whereas the remake is shaped for the entertainment values and mores of the 21st century, including the equivalent of a "drive-by" shooting where one outlaw dashes on horseback down mainstreet and pots one of the captors of his boss. The gunfire and body count is ramped up in the remake to meet the expectations of the 15-35 year-old-males, or whoever they make movies for these days.

That age group much prefers the remake whereas guys my age much prefer the original.



Bright light. Bright light. Uh oh.
As far as locations go, when I think westerns, Monument Valley often comes to mind and after that, probably the Badlands. I also think of wagon trains and cattle crossing rivers, towns either full of stages, horses and people, or just before a shootout, I think of completely empty, dustblown streets. Of course, the horse and saddle are iconic so we need a hitching post and a livery stable, along with the six-shooter, repeating rifles and shotguns. You've got to have a cowboy hat but I don't especially think of them as being white or black connoting who the hero and villain are.

I also tend to think of the life of a cowboy as a tough one, although I'm not sure how many movies actually depict that accurately. I especially enjoy the wide open vistas and spaces. I've gone to just about every national park in the western half of the United States and it really makes me feel one with nature. I believe that westerns should depict that but most seem to fall short due to other conventions, such as the battle of Good against Evil.



planet news's Avatar
Registered User
Interesting that rufnek brought up Star Wars and other sci-fis. What do you guys think about the proposition that the space opera "replaced" the western in terms of its stance within the collective totality of genres? Or do you think it is more accurate to say that it was essentially the same genre, and that genre is much less a collection of images than a web of relations. I say this only to suggest that maybe rufnek's concept of the frontier is the key to what a western is. Is it possible that everything else---the cowboys, the indians, the vast spaces, the lonely caravans---are just imaginary projections of a fixed symbolic structure? Is the western more than just a period of time in American history? Could it be possible that this concept of the frontier is representative of some universal human experience?
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Interesting that rufnek brought up Star Wars and other sci-fis. What do you guys think about the proposition that the space opera "replaced" the western in terms of its stance within the collective totality of genres? Or do you think it is more accurate to say that it was essentially the same genre, and that genre is much less a collection of images than a web of relations. I say this only to suggest that maybe rufnek's concept of the frontier is the key to what a western is. Is it possible that everything else---the cowboys, the indians, the vast spaces, the lonely caravans---are just imaginary projections of a fixed symbolic structure? Is the western more than just a period of time in American history? Could it be possible that this concept of the frontier is representative of some universal human experience?
Seeing as how the only westerns around now are period pieces and therefore exhibit no "destination" of manifest destiny (probably because we killed everything), and that sci-fi took its place in that sense after the spaghetti westerns, while taking influences directly from them in terms of scope and atmosphere and of course Metropolis, 2001 and Solaris, it's almost beyond probable that sci-fi was the only thing able to take exploration further, especially when we started sending things up just because we could. In the same sense, the samurai films that influenced westerns altered in the same scope, as almost all contemporary ones are period pieces as well. Except Hero (or is there truth in that tale?)



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
If your just dealing with the themes of the western and applying it to science fiction like Star Wars, then the western has been around before there were westerns. The story of Robin Hood, which had been around for centuries, has all the Star War elements also.



planet news's Avatar
Registered User
I see what you mean. Though I'm not here referring to the specific monomyth in Robin Hood in Star Wars but the environment as a whole in these sorts of fictions. Robin Hood does NOT have a analogy to a frontier, correct?



The top two rules of westerns:
1. Make it in Italy.
2. Make it cheap.
The ultimate goal of the project is to create a promotional trailer. Unfortunately, being British, I can only satisfy the second rule.

Thanks for the responses everyone, I've got plenty to talk about here.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
If you wanted to create a trailer for a western, why didn't you say so? Are you that ignorant of westerns you don't have a clue how to do it? You put in all the cliches and focus on gunfights, use Spaghettit western music or the Magnifacent Seven theme, and emphasize the showdown between the good guy and the bad guy. Look at trailers (if you can find them on youtube or Turner Classiv Movie) for High Noon, Shane, For a Few Dollars More, Ride the High Country, and The Magnificent Seven because they are among the most iconic.



If your just dealing with the themes of the western and applying it to science fiction like Star Wars, then the western has been around before there were westerns. The story of Robin Hood, which had been around for centuries, has all the Star War elements also.
Robin Hood, Rob Roy, and--to a certain degree--Braveheart are great examples of medieval "Westerns." As are film version of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court with Bing Crosby as the Yankee who uses a pistol and a lariat to bring down the bad guys. Or any of Bruce Campbell's time-travel forays back to medieval times.

I recently watched a TV mini-series Pillars of the Sky set in medieval times and was struck by its many similarities to Westerns with personal duels (swords instead of pistols) and even an evil sheriff and a hanging judge who's crooked. There was one scene where the villagers quickly erect a makeshift wall around their town prior to a pending attack that was very much like circling the wagons prior to an Indian raid or similar preparations against outlaws in The Magnificient Seven and the original Japanese film (I can't spell sammyrye, samari, shamashama, whatever!)

For that matter, Chaucer's use of a trip to bring together a lot of different people of different classes is still a staple of movie story telling in Westerns like Stagecoach, Red River, The Ox-Bow Incident, Rio Bravo and it's various copies, on up through The High and the Mighty and the Airport disaster flicks, all the films about Titanic, Ship of Fools, and gawd only knows how many others.



I see what you mean. Though I'm not here referring to the specific monomyth in Robin Hood in Star Wars but the environment as a whole in these sorts of fictions. Robin Hood does NOT have a analogy to a frontier, correct?
There are a lot of Western elements to Robin Hood besides the use of bow and arrows. To start with, you got a wicked man of power exploiting local citizens through heavy taxes and land grabs, a crooked sheriff aiding him, there is no one else nearby to whom the people can turn for justice, and the one good guy is declared an outlaw. So he gathers other outlaws and victims of authorities together and they take on the bad guys in a contest of good vs. evil.

Seems to me the battle between good and evil is the central element to any good Western. There are wrongs to be righted, injustices to be undone, and the evil-doers must get their come-uppance in the end. Definitely, it's the guys in the white hats vs. the guys in the black hats.