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Since when offensive can't be funny?
James Gunn fired from "Guardians of The Galaxy" for offensive tweets
[This post isn't in response to anything that's been said in this thread, but is just me unloading my personal feelings and thoughts on this newest controversy. Sorry for the length and for veering off track. I actually deleted whole paragraphs and compressed much of what I'd initially written in an effort to make it more readable, and also threw in some random .GIFs of my MoFo alter ego to break up all the text.]
As someone who loves tasteless humor (the more "offensive" and shocking a joke, the funnier it often is to me) and as a consumer/creator of art that is intentionally dark and disturbing, I find this James Gunn situation deeply troubling. Do I personally think the man should've been fired? Absolutely not. However, what troubles me the most (and the reason why I feel the need to write down and share my thoughts on this matter even though I typically keep opinions to myself when it comes to real-world issues) isn't the firing of James Gunn, but all the people (and there's a sh*t ton of them) who accuse Gunn of being a pedophile simply because he made jokes about pedophilia, and that anyone who defends him is okay with the molestation of children. I've heard countless people say that Gunn should be arrested or investigated. (According to that line of thinking, Trey Parker and Matt Stone will be soon be sentenced to life without parole.) Now as more comedians have had similar jokes "exposed," I've been reading tweets about how the comedians in question are attempting to normalize pedophilia. So I guess that means if a film contains a scene of a cop being shot and killed, that the filmmakers are condoning and encouraging violence against police? If someone writes a book from the perspective of a serial killer, does it mean that he/she has killed people or that he/she aspires to do so? Is Silence of the Lambs a public endorsement of kidnapping, cannibalism and wearing other people's skin? How 'bout I share an impromptu poem: "Sitting on the edge of my bed, sheets stained red / Got a corpse in the center, legs wide spread / Slip on a condom, then I cut off her head / This is my fetish: I f**k the dead." By creating that literary delight have I just revealed myself to be a necrophiliac? Apparently we've forgotten that humor is also an art form. The creator of a joke is as separate from the joke itself as a musician from a song, a poet from a poem, a writer from a story. I'll admit to chuckling at a few of Gunn's tweets, but most of them were cringeworthy -- not because of the subject matter, but because they just weren't funny or clever. There are good jokes and bad jokes. Like all art, humor is subjective. One person thinks fart jokes are juvenile. Another person thinks fart jokes are hysterical. Regardless, making a fart joke or laughing at a fart joke doesn't make one a serial fart-smeller.
"But [insert heinous subject here, be it rape or pedophilia or whatever] isn't funny, and joking about such subject matter is not only harmful, but belittles the trauma of real-life survivors!" Well, that's certainly a much more reasonable response to Gunn's tweets than assassinating his character or threatening him with violence. However, I'm a strong believer that no subject matter should be off-limits in art, regardless of how taboo, uncomfortable or offensive audiences might find that subject matter. Audiences should never be coddled because someone's always going to take offense at something, and if we draw a line to exclude sexual assault, child abuse and animal cruelty, someone else is going to re-draw the line to exclude foul language, then the piece of chalk will be passed to a religious person who decides that it's not okay for jokes to be made about his/her god(s) and religion, and an amputee will say, "Hey, pass that chalk to me so I can prevent horror-comedies from playing dismemberments for laughs because I find those scenes ableist," and so on and so on until everything is considered too insensitive to be replicated in art except rainbows and butterflies. Oh, but wait, the rainbow is a symbol of gay pride, and that makes homophobes uncomfortable, so they band together and get a hashtag trending to eliminate rainbows from art as well, and then a little old lady from Slob-knob, Oklahoma raises her hand and reminds everyone that as a little girl she was once hit by a car after chasing a butterfly into the street, and that seeing those bastard caterpillars with wings brings forth severe symptoms of PTSD, so never again will anyone see a painting of a butterfly or hear them referenced in a lyric.
The reason I'm so passionate about this issue is because I have my own history of writing f**ked-up sh*t, and if it wasn't for writing that f**ked-up sh*t, I can't guarantee that I would still be here today. Writing has always been one of my favorite hobbies, and it's one of the few things at which I'm halfway decent. I'm sure the notebooks still exist from when I was eight-years-old and already scribbling down stories about joining the Power Rangers or saving my classmates from monstrous teachers. As my life took a sharp left turn into a fecal-splattered toilet bowl, my writing reflected that. I wrote about some extremely dark stuff. If you can think of a taboo subject, I'm sure at least one of my stories covered it. A girlfriend once told me that I have the devil in me when I write. I'm sure she meant it literally, being one of those Christian folks, but in a sense she was right. What she didn't understand, however, was that I was exorcising my demons through my writing. Instead of being consumed by all that rage and bitterness and sorrow and resentment, instead of succumbing to it through suicide or violence, I expunged my pain onto the written page. "Well, that's fine and dandy," you say, "but it doesn't mean that you have to share your demented little stories with the rest of the world." Maybe, but there's a reason why pouring out your heart to a brick wall isn't as cathartic as pouring out your heart to another human being.
This is why I bristle when horror comes under attack from people saying that Movie X or Book Y is too graphic, too violent, too disturbing, that only sick and twisted individuals could enjoy watching/reading such harmful, destructive content, because I think that horror, no matter how extreme, does far more good for society than bad. I know of many people besides myself who credit the horror genre for helping them through the lowest points in their lives. It's similar to how, if depressed, listening to a depressing song actually makes me feel better, whereas a positive, upbeat song makes me feel worse about myself because I can't relate to the emotion of the song and I feel alienated as a result. Not everyone has the imagination or the talent to release their pain through a creative outlet of their own, so it's essential for art to exist that plumbs the darkest recesses of humanity in order for all the wounded individuals of the world to share in the knowledge that they are not alone in their suffering, that others have encountered the same ugliness, the same evils, the same hate. If art is sanitized or censored for fear of offending delicate sensibilities, we lose that release, and instead all those negative emotions/memories/thoughts are bottled up and allowed to erode us from within. So never tell me what I can or can't write about. If you don't like it, don't read it. Same applies to humor. Don't like a joke? Don't laugh. Seek out humor that is better suited for your own sensibilities. But never tell a person what they can or can't joke about.
Having a twisted sense of humor isn't something for which a person should feel guilt or shame, so I hate that James Gunn ever apologized for jokes that he made in the past (beside maybe apologizing for just not making them funnier). Shock humor is a thing. Ever heard of "The Aristocrats" skit that so many comedians have given their own spin? (If not, here's a YouTube video of Gilbert Gottfried, voice of Iago the Parrot from Disney's Aladdin, performing his own rendition of the material.) Either you're repulsed by the taboo-shattering filth and think to yourself, "Man, that's too disgusting and f**ked up to be funny," or you laugh because the material is so incredibly vile. It's the same with stupid/absurd humor. You can roll your eyes and say, "That's too stupid to be funny," or you can find yourself laughing because the humor is so stupid. Neither reaction is right or wrong. Of course, like I said earlier, there are good jokes and bad jokes. There's punching up and there's punching down. Some jokes about racism are meant to point out the absurdities of bigotry and other jokes about racism are thinly-veiled attacks hiding behind an excuse. That's when it's up to the listener to interpret intent and decide for themselves whether they feel okay laughing or cringing. James Gunn has said that his past provocations don't reflect the person he is today, and I'm sure he's sincere, just as stories I wrote a decade ago don't reflect the person I am today, either, now that I'm in a much more positive place.
In response to Gunn's tasteless tweets and the other comedians who have come under fire for making similar jokes about pedophilia, commenters have said, "Well, maybe they're not going around actually raping children, but clearly anyone who would laugh or joke about such disturbing topics must have a dark, dark mind." I'd say that's likely a certainty. I'm sure my sense of humor would be nowhere near as perverse had I not gone through dark times. It's often said that comedians make jokes to mask their own pain and suffering. I have no idea what Gunn may have gone through in his life (and I know he's not technically a comedian, but all his work has been comedic in nature), but I'm sure he went through something. So maybe, just like me with my stories, his past provocations (whether we're talking "offensive" jokes or his twisted output like Super and Tromeo and Juliet) were his method of expelling the negativity inside himself through artistic, productive means in an effort to heal himself. And who are we to judge a man for that?
Besides, I disagree with this notion that bad things can't be mined for humor. We should work to find humor in everything. In his most recent stand-up special, Humanity, Ricky Gervais tells a story about his brother giving incorrect names and information for the vicar to deliver during their mother's eulogy, and how Ricky himself had written messages on the tissues he handed out, like, "Stop sniveling, you f**king crybaby!" so that eventually everyone at the funeral was trying to suppress their giggles while the vicar looked on in horror and confusion. Does that mean that Ricky and his family were disrespecting their mother's memory and making light of her death? Of course not. It was just their way of trying to heal everyone and boost their spirits. You can mourn and chuckle at the same time. As he says in the special, "We're all gonna die, so we should have a laugh, because if you can laugh in the face of adversity, you're bulletproof." I don't understand this modern mentality where everyone takes offense over every little thing. It's supposed to be sticks and stones that break our bones, not words. If someone says something to you that you find insulting or insensitive, respond with a joke, not offense. To use the schoolyard bully analogy, if someone is poking fun at whatever he or she thinks is your biggest insecurity, the best way to de-weaponize their remarks is by cracking a joke about the same thing. Someone makes fun of your weight? Make a fat joke. Someone mocks your speech impediment. Smile and exaggerate that speech impediment in amusing fashion. I guarantee you'll get better results through that method than by responding with insults or violence or by ignoring the remarks completely. Nothing diffuses tension better than humor. Rather than walking around pissed-off all the time and grabbing digital pitchforks in an effort to destroy other people's careers and reputations and responding to every disagreement as if it's a cannonball fired on a battlefield, people either need to re-discover their funny bone or find an outlet, whether that means creating their own art or listening to heavy-metal or watching films or masturbating eighteen times a day or exercising with a punching bag or whatever, to dispel their hostility and negativity in a healthier manner. And to end with a joke befitting this newest excuse for people to hurl hatred at one another in this ongoing, idiotic cultural war: "If you're afraid of pedophiles . . . grow up!"
As someone who loves tasteless humor (the more "offensive" and shocking a joke, the funnier it often is to me) and as a consumer/creator of art that is intentionally dark and disturbing, I find this James Gunn situation deeply troubling. Do I personally think the man should've been fired? Absolutely not. However, what troubles me the most (and the reason why I feel the need to write down and share my thoughts on this matter even though I typically keep opinions to myself when it comes to real-world issues) isn't the firing of James Gunn, but all the people (and there's a sh*t ton of them) who accuse Gunn of being a pedophile simply because he made jokes about pedophilia, and that anyone who defends him is okay with the molestation of children. I've heard countless people say that Gunn should be arrested or investigated. (According to that line of thinking, Trey Parker and Matt Stone will be soon be sentenced to life without parole.) Now as more comedians have had similar jokes "exposed," I've been reading tweets about how the comedians in question are attempting to normalize pedophilia. So I guess that means if a film contains a scene of a cop being shot and killed, that the filmmakers are condoning and encouraging violence against police? If someone writes a book from the perspective of a serial killer, does it mean that he/she has killed people or that he/she aspires to do so? Is Silence of the Lambs a public endorsement of kidnapping, cannibalism and wearing other people's skin? How 'bout I share an impromptu poem: "Sitting on the edge of my bed, sheets stained red / Got a corpse in the center, legs wide spread / Slip on a condom, then I cut off her head / This is my fetish: I f**k the dead." By creating that literary delight have I just revealed myself to be a necrophiliac? Apparently we've forgotten that humor is also an art form. The creator of a joke is as separate from the joke itself as a musician from a song, a poet from a poem, a writer from a story. I'll admit to chuckling at a few of Gunn's tweets, but most of them were cringeworthy -- not because of the subject matter, but because they just weren't funny or clever. There are good jokes and bad jokes. Like all art, humor is subjective. One person thinks fart jokes are juvenile. Another person thinks fart jokes are hysterical. Regardless, making a fart joke or laughing at a fart joke doesn't make one a serial fart-smeller.
"But [insert heinous subject here, be it rape or pedophilia or whatever] isn't funny, and joking about such subject matter is not only harmful, but belittles the trauma of real-life survivors!" Well, that's certainly a much more reasonable response to Gunn's tweets than assassinating his character or threatening him with violence. However, I'm a strong believer that no subject matter should be off-limits in art, regardless of how taboo, uncomfortable or offensive audiences might find that subject matter. Audiences should never be coddled because someone's always going to take offense at something, and if we draw a line to exclude sexual assault, child abuse and animal cruelty, someone else is going to re-draw the line to exclude foul language, then the piece of chalk will be passed to a religious person who decides that it's not okay for jokes to be made about his/her god(s) and religion, and an amputee will say, "Hey, pass that chalk to me so I can prevent horror-comedies from playing dismemberments for laughs because I find those scenes ableist," and so on and so on until everything is considered too insensitive to be replicated in art except rainbows and butterflies. Oh, but wait, the rainbow is a symbol of gay pride, and that makes homophobes uncomfortable, so they band together and get a hashtag trending to eliminate rainbows from art as well, and then a little old lady from Slob-knob, Oklahoma raises her hand and reminds everyone that as a little girl she was once hit by a car after chasing a butterfly into the street, and that seeing those bastard caterpillars with wings brings forth severe symptoms of PTSD, so never again will anyone see a painting of a butterfly or hear them referenced in a lyric.
The reason I'm so passionate about this issue is because I have my own history of writing f**ked-up sh*t, and if it wasn't for writing that f**ked-up sh*t, I can't guarantee that I would still be here today. Writing has always been one of my favorite hobbies, and it's one of the few things at which I'm halfway decent. I'm sure the notebooks still exist from when I was eight-years-old and already scribbling down stories about joining the Power Rangers or saving my classmates from monstrous teachers. As my life took a sharp left turn into a fecal-splattered toilet bowl, my writing reflected that. I wrote about some extremely dark stuff. If you can think of a taboo subject, I'm sure at least one of my stories covered it. A girlfriend once told me that I have the devil in me when I write. I'm sure she meant it literally, being one of those Christian folks, but in a sense she was right. What she didn't understand, however, was that I was exorcising my demons through my writing. Instead of being consumed by all that rage and bitterness and sorrow and resentment, instead of succumbing to it through suicide or violence, I expunged my pain onto the written page. "Well, that's fine and dandy," you say, "but it doesn't mean that you have to share your demented little stories with the rest of the world." Maybe, but there's a reason why pouring out your heart to a brick wall isn't as cathartic as pouring out your heart to another human being.
This is why I bristle when horror comes under attack from people saying that Movie X or Book Y is too graphic, too violent, too disturbing, that only sick and twisted individuals could enjoy watching/reading such harmful, destructive content, because I think that horror, no matter how extreme, does far more good for society than bad. I know of many people besides myself who credit the horror genre for helping them through the lowest points in their lives. It's similar to how, if depressed, listening to a depressing song actually makes me feel better, whereas a positive, upbeat song makes me feel worse about myself because I can't relate to the emotion of the song and I feel alienated as a result. Not everyone has the imagination or the talent to release their pain through a creative outlet of their own, so it's essential for art to exist that plumbs the darkest recesses of humanity in order for all the wounded individuals of the world to share in the knowledge that they are not alone in their suffering, that others have encountered the same ugliness, the same evils, the same hate. If art is sanitized or censored for fear of offending delicate sensibilities, we lose that release, and instead all those negative emotions/memories/thoughts are bottled up and allowed to erode us from within. So never tell me what I can or can't write about. If you don't like it, don't read it. Same applies to humor. Don't like a joke? Don't laugh. Seek out humor that is better suited for your own sensibilities. But never tell a person what they can or can't joke about.
Having a twisted sense of humor isn't something for which a person should feel guilt or shame, so I hate that James Gunn ever apologized for jokes that he made in the past (beside maybe apologizing for just not making them funnier). Shock humor is a thing. Ever heard of "The Aristocrats" skit that so many comedians have given their own spin? (If not, here's a YouTube video of Gilbert Gottfried, voice of Iago the Parrot from Disney's Aladdin, performing his own rendition of the material.) Either you're repulsed by the taboo-shattering filth and think to yourself, "Man, that's too disgusting and f**ked up to be funny," or you laugh because the material is so incredibly vile. It's the same with stupid/absurd humor. You can roll your eyes and say, "That's too stupid to be funny," or you can find yourself laughing because the humor is so stupid. Neither reaction is right or wrong. Of course, like I said earlier, there are good jokes and bad jokes. There's punching up and there's punching down. Some jokes about racism are meant to point out the absurdities of bigotry and other jokes about racism are thinly-veiled attacks hiding behind an excuse. That's when it's up to the listener to interpret intent and decide for themselves whether they feel okay laughing or cringing. James Gunn has said that his past provocations don't reflect the person he is today, and I'm sure he's sincere, just as stories I wrote a decade ago don't reflect the person I am today, either, now that I'm in a much more positive place.
In response to Gunn's tasteless tweets and the other comedians who have come under fire for making similar jokes about pedophilia, commenters have said, "Well, maybe they're not going around actually raping children, but clearly anyone who would laugh or joke about such disturbing topics must have a dark, dark mind." I'd say that's likely a certainty. I'm sure my sense of humor would be nowhere near as perverse had I not gone through dark times. It's often said that comedians make jokes to mask their own pain and suffering. I have no idea what Gunn may have gone through in his life (and I know he's not technically a comedian, but all his work has been comedic in nature), but I'm sure he went through something. So maybe, just like me with my stories, his past provocations (whether we're talking "offensive" jokes or his twisted output like Super and Tromeo and Juliet) were his method of expelling the negativity inside himself through artistic, productive means in an effort to heal himself. And who are we to judge a man for that?
Besides, I disagree with this notion that bad things can't be mined for humor. We should work to find humor in everything. In his most recent stand-up special, Humanity, Ricky Gervais tells a story about his brother giving incorrect names and information for the vicar to deliver during their mother's eulogy, and how Ricky himself had written messages on the tissues he handed out, like, "Stop sniveling, you f**king crybaby!" so that eventually everyone at the funeral was trying to suppress their giggles while the vicar looked on in horror and confusion. Does that mean that Ricky and his family were disrespecting their mother's memory and making light of her death? Of course not. It was just their way of trying to heal everyone and boost their spirits. You can mourn and chuckle at the same time. As he says in the special, "We're all gonna die, so we should have a laugh, because if you can laugh in the face of adversity, you're bulletproof." I don't understand this modern mentality where everyone takes offense over every little thing. It's supposed to be sticks and stones that break our bones, not words. If someone says something to you that you find insulting or insensitive, respond with a joke, not offense. To use the schoolyard bully analogy, if someone is poking fun at whatever he or she thinks is your biggest insecurity, the best way to de-weaponize their remarks is by cracking a joke about the same thing. Someone makes fun of your weight? Make a fat joke. Someone mocks your speech impediment. Smile and exaggerate that speech impediment in amusing fashion. I guarantee you'll get better results through that method than by responding with insults or violence or by ignoring the remarks completely. Nothing diffuses tension better than humor. Rather than walking around pissed-off all the time and grabbing digital pitchforks in an effort to destroy other people's careers and reputations and responding to every disagreement as if it's a cannonball fired on a battlefield, people either need to re-discover their funny bone or find an outlet, whether that means creating their own art or listening to heavy-metal or watching films or masturbating eighteen times a day or exercising with a punching bag or whatever, to dispel their hostility and negativity in a healthier manner. And to end with a joke befitting this newest excuse for people to hurl hatred at one another in this ongoing, idiotic cultural war: "If you're afraid of pedophiles . . . grow up!"
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Last edited by Captain Spaulding; 07-27-18 at 01:49 AM.
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I'm of the belief that we can't draw lines on any topic. If I make a joke that offends someone or is in bad taste, but I'm the best firefighter at the local department, the bravest one, I have saved the most lives...let's not lose perspective.
Speaking of perspective, let's remember that saying from our childhood. "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but..." So until somebody comes at you with a knife, assaults your children, or tries to take what is yours; get a grip.
All of this stuff is based in part on our innate bloodlust. We don't kill or watch humans fight animals anymore, but we still have a desire to destroy. All of this comes to a head when one is deemed to be at the rear of the pack and we all race to sink our fangs into the prey.
Speaking of perspective, let's remember that saying from our childhood. "Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but..." So until somebody comes at you with a knife, assaults your children, or tries to take what is yours; get a grip.
All of this stuff is based in part on our innate bloodlust. We don't kill or watch humans fight animals anymore, but we still have a desire to destroy. All of this comes to a head when one is deemed to be at the rear of the pack and we all race to sink our fangs into the prey.
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It looks like the fans and the cast have been heard because it now appears Marvel and Disney are attempting to negotiate a deal to bring Gunn back for GotG Vol. 3. Dave Bautista even went to say if at least Gunn's script is not used, he wants out of his contract.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/08/...ney-and-marvel
https://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/08...axy-3-rehired/
http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/08/...ney-and-marvel
https://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/08...axy-3-rehired/
Obviously Marvel wants him back, but this came from DISNEY. They broke the chain of command and fired him. I don't see him coming back to be honest.
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If Gunn isn't writing the next Guardians Of The Galaxy picture, I'm giving ****-all about it. The Guardians movies are some of the very few superhero movies I actually get kinda excited over seeing (even the massive praise for Civil War and Infinity War didn't draw me in), simply because James Gunn has a special, quirky sense of humor that makes them a lot of fun. I don't give a flying god-damn **** if he wrote some offensive jokes in the past. Some of the best comedians of all time happen to be very provocative, and all the better for it. Humor doesn't always have to be intellectual, sometimes it's just out to make you laugh. Did the tweets of James Gunn make me laugh? Well no, but the ones Gilbert Gottfried made about the tsumani I thought were hilarious. Critiquing jokes is an open area for everyone. I draw the line when it can get someone ****ing fired.
James Gunn's situation is not even close to the same as Roseanne Barr's. Barr was just being racist. Gunn was hoping what he said would be funny. A huge difference in this case.
And the fact that the person who spread the wildfire turned out to be a hypocritical sex criminal really says it all. Why is anyone even giving Gunn the business anymore?
James Gunn's situation is not even close to the same as Roseanne Barr's. Barr was just being racist. Gunn was hoping what he said would be funny. A huge difference in this case.
And the fact that the person who spread the wildfire turned out to be a hypocritical sex criminal really says it all. Why is anyone even giving Gunn the business anymore?
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While Disney has ultimately decided that they will not reinstate Gunn as director, the question now is, will they still use his script?
http://www.darkhorizons.com/gunn-won...ird-guardians/
http://www.darkhorizons.com/gunn-won...ird-guardians/
The thing with the Gunn debate I can't quite comprehend is that people act like Disney have crossed the line? Sure there are mitigating circumstances in instances like this, and I appreciate he didn't truly mean the tweets. However, I also understand that Disney are a family orientated business, and they simply cannot employ someone who put such things out in the public domain.
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Cuz we are the internet and we move the line as we see fit! 
BTW, Lil Rob, I'm your biggest fan.
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I think the issue is the various inconsistencies that apply, whether it's the matter of how Disney disregarded the issue when left-leaning people originally brought the tweets up around the time of Gunn's original hiring (which prompted his initial apology and didn't result in a firing) or their continued employment of people with more significant histories of bad behaviour (Johnny Depp being the major example).
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I really just want you all angry and confused the whole time.
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