10th anniversary of 9/11

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Well, I did a search and didn't see anything specific on this subject, so thought I'd toss it out to see what sort of ripples it might make. Truth is, I likely wouldn't even be aware of this anniversary if not for all the TV hoopla. I mean, Dec. 7, 1941, is still a day that lives in infamy in my memory although it happened a little more than 2 years before I was born. But it took the US into the biggest world war ever. Whereas more people died in the 9/11 attacks than the death count at Pearl Harbor (although fewer than the total deaths caused by the Axis powers around the world on Dec. 7, 1941), it doesn't seem to me to be the start or end of anything.

I expect that to elicit all sorts of howls, but I'm not trying to flame anyone or belittle the deaths of any of those people--not even the terrorists themselves. I'm way past the point in my life that I would take anyone's death lightly. But although I, like millions of others, saw on TV the second plane hit the twin towers, I've never felt a personal connection to 9/11. I can connect with The Wall (Vietnam monument) because my generation fought that war, and I can connect with Pearl Harbor because my dad fought in that war. But what is the ultimate historic meaning of 9/11? Do you feel any safer or more threatened today than you did on Sept. 10, 2001? I don't--I was scheduled to fly to a conference later that day (9/11) and wouldn't have hesitated a second to step aboard an aircraft for a flight because flying--especially outside of general Northeast US and even there after the 4 highjacked planes were down--was no more risky statistically than flying anywhere on any other day. I still do not fear a terrorist attack from either a foreign or a domestic enemy. The National Guard walking around with automatic weapons in US airports seemed a greater danger to me than the phantom terrorists they were supposed to be keeping at bay.

I avoid flying today not because of fear of some unknown bumbling terrorists but because National Security has made flying so damn unpleasant with nothing to show for it. Polticians eager to be seen to "do something" have crippled commercial air transportation more than the terrorists ever hoped to. And to what purpose?



Today's 9/10, not 9/11. Why don't you wait a day before calling it the tenth anniversary.

Okay, perhaps I oughtn't nitpick. To answer your question, I feel far less safe now than I would have ten years ago. Those TSA agents are not to be trusted, and I'd sooner risk a terrorist attack than a near-certain attack by the TSA on my rights and dignity. It isn't as though the TSA have had any successes or anything, other than perhaps keeping people from wanting to fly.

I believe that the ultimate significance of 9/11 is that it has shown the watchful citizenry how totalitarian their so-called "democratic" government can be when they feel like it. Opposition towards the TSA - at least in my primary libertarian circles, though even among those I know of other political viewpoints - is rampant. If anything, I wonder if the purpose of the TSA is not to protect people, but to scare them away from flying as part of a greater "green" movement by the government.



I think the most obvious response is that the Patriot Act is one of the worst things ever

Also, I don't think anyone will forget this so this seems like another jesus on the cross thing, just something morbid to stare at, even though it would be healthier to move on which it seems a lot of people don't want to do



Today's 9/10, not 9/11. Why don't you wait a day before calling it the tenth anniversary.
Like there's not a calendar on my computer. But when I was a kid we always opened Christmas presents on Christmas Eve--why wait until the last minute? Everyone may be out doing whatever they do to mark the 9/11 anniversary tomorrow and would miss the posting.

Besides, they've been doing "9/11 10 years later" schtiks for the past week or so.

I believe that the ultimate significance of 9/11 is that it has shown the watchful citizenry how totalitarian their so-called "democratic" government can be when they feel like it.
I'm not one to accept that "citizenry" and "voters" are somehow separate from and unresponsible for government. For every bad government in the world there are millions of lazy irresponsible local residents sitting on their butts and willing to tolerate the status quo. We all get exactly the kind of government we're willing to put up with.



Besides, they've been doing "9/11 10 years later" schtiks for the past week or so.
Yup

I'm not one to accept that "citizenry" and "voters" are somehow separate from and unresponsible for government. For every bad government in the world there are millions of lazy irresponsible local residents sitting on their butts and willing to tolerate the status quo. We all get exactly the kind of government we're willing to put up with.
Yup



I think the most obvious response is that the Patriot Act is one of the worst things ever

Also, I don't think anyone will forget this so this seems like another jesus on the cross thing, just something morbid to stare at, even though it would be healthier to move on which it seems a lot of people don't want to do
Yeah, anytime they attach patriot to the name of legislation or aim it at "protecting" and "respecting" the flag, one automatically knows someone's rights are about to be f**ked over.

As for "remembering" a historic event, that very much depends on the conditions one experienced that event. For instance, I always remember it as the night JFK was assassinated because I was in Mannheim, Germany, gettting our barracks ready for an inspection the next day by our new commanding officer when the news reached us. First indication I had was when the nearby armor unit started revving up their tanks and pulling out in a big hurry. Soldier with a weird look on his face came down to the basement where I and others were on a punishment chit detail to tell us the sergeant wanted us upstairs. I said, "What's wrong?" He said, "The President has been killed and we're at war."

We get upstairs and the radio news is saying JFK was killed in Dallas. I say, "What the hell was he doing in Dallas?" I was one of maybe 2-3 Texans in our outfit at that time.

I'm listening to all the reports about JFK and thinking to myself, "Screw that, what about the war????" After several minutes, it finally is evident from what is (and isn't) being reported that "only" the president has been murdered and we're not at war after all. Which meant that plans for my wife and daughter to join me in Germany in 2 weeks would not be cancelled, which made me very happy at the time!

The next day was a day of mourning which let most of the unit off duty except for a skeletal crew that of course included me because I was always on the sgt.'s chit list--for good reason. On the other hand, he had to let me off the next day while everyone else was back at work. By then all the German beerhalls had reopened from their day of mourning, and a lot of Germans bought me a round in sympathy for JFK's death. I also recall I had just returned to the barracks from another tour of German bars when I heard on the radio that Oswald had been killed. By then I'm wondering, "What the hell is going on back home???"

I never saw any of the TV coverage of the killings or Kennedy's funeral until the first anniversary of his assassination because I didn't have access to any TVs in Germany when it was going on, so my memories of JFK's death are a lot different from most US residents.

Tomorrow I'll likely spend my time doing somethng useful like washing the cat instead of watch New York-based national TV rehash what was a really big local story for them 10 years ago. I mean, how many times without puking can one see a clip of a commercial aircraft slamming into the twin towers??? Once was way more than enough for me--I don't even want to think about what those people went through.



I'm not old, you're just 12.
9/11/11 is the anniversary of when I first started going out with my current girlfriend. A happy event on 9/11? Terrorists LOSE! I think that we as a country should all start doing POSITIVE things on that day till it's not this horrible, mournful day anymore.
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You guys should get married on 9/11.

Wait until 2013. Then your anniversary will be 9/11/13. All unlucky numbers.



will.15's Avatar
Semper Fooey
You guys should get married on 9/11.
That is what I was going to say!

Hail, Satan.
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You guys should get married on 9/11.

Wait until 2013. Then your anniversary will be 9/11/13. All unlucky numbers.
My wife and I deliberately avoided getting married on September 11th; we had the option but chose a week later, the 18th.



My wife and I deliberately avoided getting married on September 11th; we had the option but chose a week later, the 18th.
That's you and your wife. You didn't start dating then. I say do it --

a. It's easy to remember
b. It's unique
c. It's memorable and can be talked about and remembered by others with interest
d. f**k what the terrorists did, you guys started dating on that day
e. hmmmmm.... i think that's about it



"He has all the time in the world ... "
9/11 was a failure of our government's policy, laws, systems, and politicians. If it wasn't for us, it wouldn't have happened.
9/11 was nothing to do with American citizens, it was caused by fanatical obscurantist bigoted maniacal terrorists with a deep hatred of anything that is different from themselves.



We've gone on holiday by mistake
9/11 was nothing to do with American citizens, it was caused by fanatical obscurantist bigoted maniacal terrorists with a deep hatred of anything that is different from themselves.
Was it?

I personally believe it was orchestrated and carried out by the fanatical bigoted maniacal old men who run the USA and Israel as an excuse to create a never ending War on Terror, that will be great for the Military Industrial Complex, Halliburton etc, Big Oil (Stops rebel Dictators selling Oil to China), and protecting Israel by having vast USA military presence in the Middle East. Also serves as a great excuse to pass a load of Totaliterian laws like Patriot Act, Airport Nude body scanners etc.

Supposedly they got Osama too, but ofc no body or pictures and instantly buried at sea.Also convieniently some of the Seal Team members died in a helicopter crash. No trial for Osama, no arrest, just like Oswald, he's dead he did it, nothing to see here folks just go back to watching Friends and drinking Pepsi. Still don't see an end in sight to War on Terror either.

Iran will be next, one way or the other, never ending propaganda against Iran in the Main Stream Media, being spouted by the likes of Rick Santorum.

No Yoda, I don't want another never ending debate with you thanks.



I think our "never ending debate" was actually pretty short. We didn't get more than a couple rounds of questions in before you bailed on it. And as long as you keep claiming things that I don't think you can defend, I'm gonna call it out. That's how it works.

Love this part, by the way:

"Was it?"

Yes, it was.

This is now the end of this post.





OR IS IT?!



We've gone on holiday by mistake
I think our "never ending debate" was actually pretty short. We didn't get more than a couple rounds of questions in before you bailed on it. And as long as you keep claiming things that I don't think you can defend, I'm gonna call it out. That's how it works.

Love this part, by the way:

"Was it?"

Yes, it was.

This is now the end of this post.





OR IS IT?!
Well I chose to get off the merrygoround early because all it does is go round and round. Like you and Will15 in that Ron Paul or Obama thread.



Yeah, it's been my experience that people who think such discussions go "round and round" are just the ones making circular arguments. Wordplay FTW!

But in all seriousness: such discussions can make plenty of progress if people simply present evidence, make their arguments, and--this is the big one--respond to counterarguments and questions. But if they ignore them and just keep insisting something, or are willing to extrapolate from tiny things into huge assumptions? Well, sure, then the discussion definitely goes "round and round." But that's a choice, not an inevitability.



We've gone on holiday by mistake
Yeah, it's been my experience that people who think such discussions go "round and round" are just the ones making circular arguments. Wordplay FTW!

But in all seriousness: such discussions can make plenty of progress if people simply present evidence, make their arguments, and--this is the big one--respond to counterarguments and questions. But if they ignore them and just keep insisting something, or are willing to extrapolate from tiny things into huge assumptions? Well, sure, then the discussion definitely goes "round and round." But that's a choice, not an inevitability.
Ok I have a week off coming up so we can play out this debate if you like, no backing away from "evidence"/counter arguments etc. We can call it Yoda vs Gandalf on 9/11.



We've gone on holiday by mistake
Works for me. Probably best to create a new thread for it; I feel bad enough talking about this stuff in this one.
Ok then, its a date. Although Skyrim is out that week so vast amounts of time will be spent on XBox.