I have some questions about the plot to Once Upon A Time in America.

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Movie Forums Squirrel Jumper
After seeing it, I feel that the movie kind of jumps ahead in parts of the plot, that left me asking questions.

WARNING: "SPOILERS" spoilers below


1. What was the point of the plot involving Treat Williams character and the police chief? I don't get who this character is, or what this subplot has to do with the main plot. The plot fo the movie is the friendship between the two main characters, so does this subplot really effect anything else in the story?

2. Why is that Noodles decided to all of a sudden rape Deborah? He seemed to really have feelings for her, and did not want it to be anger/power thing, so what all of a sudden made him snap like that, if he really actually did like her?

3. Why aren't we ever shown Max's false death? Apparently he is burned alive in a car, during a police arrest gone wrong, but it was faked. But we never see anything of this. It's only explained in dialogue years afterwards. It's explained that noodles witnessed it and was crying. Wouldn't that be an important character moment to show, rather than skipping over it and only explaining it in dialogue years later?

4. How did Max know about the briefcase when he asked about it?

5. Why did Max choose Deborah to be his gf after he faked his death? Was it his way of getting Noodles to come back to find him eventually, or did he choose Deborah for other reasons?

6. Why didn't they take more time to develop the relationship between Eve and Noodles? First Noodles looses Deborah, but then all of a sudden there is this new woman, Eve, and apparently they try to give her some character development, even though she was hardly on screen to have it really.



Maybe it's cause I had to watch the movie over two days cause of the length and my work schedule, but was it not strangely paced, especially since parts of it are told in dialogue 30 years later, and not shown?



WARNING: "SPOILERS" spoilers below
1. What was the point of the plot involving Treat Williams character and the police chief? I don't get who this character is, or what this subplot has to do with the main plot. The plot fo the movie is the friendship between the two main characters, so does this subplot really effect anything else in the story?

Treat Williams was a local union leader, you see him getting threatened by gangsters hired by the businessmen he's presumably in conflict with and the protagonists help him hoping to build up influence. The police chief is being paid off by businessmen to break up strikers and the protagonists so mixing up the children is a way of making him stop doing this and come down on the unions side.

Besides being an example of the gang members lifestyles its important to the plot because it shows how Max becomes involved with the union and rises up the political ranks and how Noodles preffers the "smell of the street".

2. Why is that Noodles decided to all of a sudden rape Deborah? He seemed to really have feelings for her, and did not want it to be anger/power thing, so what all of a sudden made him snap like that, if he really actually did like her?

She rejects him in favour of her own career, along with anger and desire maybe some inference that its self sabotage by Noodles looking to destroy the relationship.

3. Why aren't we ever shown Max's false death? Apparently he is burned alive in a car, during a police arrest gone wrong, but it was faked. But we never see anything of this. It's only explained in dialogue years afterwards. It's explained that noodles witnessed it and was crying. Wouldn't that be an important character moment to show, rather than skipping over it and only explaining it in dialogue years later?

Not showing it makes it easier to disguise whats actually happened and I'd argue the most dramatic moments are actually when Noodles desides to give him up.

4. How did Max know about the briefcase when he asked about it?

Max took the briefcase and used the money to buy his way into politics.

5. Why did Max choose Deborah to be his gf after he faked his death? Was it his way of getting Noodles to come back to find him eventually, or did he choose Deborah for other reasons?

Maybe due to some sense of competitiveness with Noodles?

6. Why didn't they take more time to develop the relationship between Eve and Noodles? First Noodles looses Deborah, but then all of a sudden there is this new woman, Eve, and apparently they try to give her some character development, even though she was hardly on screen to have it really.

I don't think Eve is intended to be built up as a character on the level of Deborah, more a casual GF for Noodles.




Movie Forums Squirrel Jumper
Oh okay, it just seemed like the Treat Williams character was an unnecessary character. And then later, they show him in politics on the TV, and Noodles sees him on the TV. What was the point of that?

As for Deborah rejecting Noodles for her own career, she finally agrees to go out with him,and then on the ride home, she kisses him in the car. Isn't this a sign that it's going well with her? How is agreeing to go on a date, and then the date ends in a kiss, rejection?

As for Max choosing Deborah to be his gf, for possible competitive reasons, this is never really confirmed though, so it seems like just a guess?

As for Max knowing about the briefcase that way, at one point in the movie, do they show Max having any knowledge of this briefcase? I thought the only time we saw it, was when Noodles had it.



Oh okay, it just seemed like the Treat Williams character was an unnecessary character. And then later, they show him in politics on the TV, and Noodles sees him on the TV. What was the point of that?
On the TV show Treat's character is referring to the secretary of commerce Christopher Bailey, who we find out is actually Max living under an assumed name. So the film shows us how Max first becomes involved in the union movement as muscle and makes it easier for us to understand how he rises up to his current position.
As for Deborah rejecting Noodles for her own career, she finally agrees to go out with him,and then on the ride home, she kisses him in the car. Isn't this a sign that it's going well with her? How is agreeing to go on a date, and then the date ends in a kiss, rejection?
Noodles pretty much proposes to her on the date and she rejects him as she believes he'd keep her "locked up in a cage" rather than allow her to have the career she wants to have.

We see across the film that Noodles is a character who's nicer side is at war with a nastier one that's the product of his environment and the latter one comes to the fore here. That's why I don't have a problem with the "rape but not really and she likes it" scene in the robbery as its normalising this kind of behaviour for him.
As for Max choosing Deborah to be his gf, for possible competitive reasons, this is never really confirmed though, so it seems like just a guess?
Maybe somewhat of a guess but I think a rather educated one given the characters natures and indeed her and Max's apologism to Noodles.
As for Max knowing about the briefcase that way, at one point in the movie, do they show Max having any knowledge of this briefcase? I thought the only time we saw it, was when Noodles had it.
Oh you mean the briefcase old Noodles finds full of money? that's come from Max who has setup Noodles return as both a way of apologising to him and having to kill him to avoid the corruption allegations ruining his family.

If you want to get more in-depth of course there's the theory that the entire old Noodles story is actually a fantasy that the younger character has in the opium den.



Movie Forums Squirrel Jumper
Oh okay. I mean it makes sense, it's just the plot skips ahead so much and they seem to want to sacrifice character development, for the sake of having a big surprise twist. By the time, we see Max 30 years later, he seems like a totally changed person and I would have like to have seen more in the end. Does that make sense?



Movie Forums Squirrel Jumper
Actually I found out that there is an extended cup at 251 minutes, where as I saw the 229 minute version. Does the extended cut show any of these things more, such why Max got together with Deborah, or Max's faked death?



I am the Watcher in the Night
I watched the extended cut, which is the first time I watched this film and do not remember it so well so can not answer regarding the differences BUT I think a lot of the questions arise out of poor script writing and laziness.

I initially enjoyed the movie as a teenager but the older I get, the less I like how it glorifies these despicable human beings, in particular their acts of rape. I am sure there are some people who will speak about its "artistic merits" but I can not condone it.
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I watched the extended cut, which is the first time I watched this film and do not remember it so well so can not answer regarding the differences BUT I think a lot of the questions arise out of poor script writing and laziness.

I initially enjoyed the movie as a teenager but the older I get, the less I like how it glorifies these despicable human beings, in particular their acts of rape. I am sure there are some people who will speak about its "artistic merits" but I can not condone it.
Can't agree with your first point at all, its a film that asks something of the audience rather than over explaining itself but I don't think its really that hard to follow.

Honestly I find exactly the reverse with your second point, films like say Goodfellas, Scarface and even to some degree The Godfather that I considered some of the greatest ever have dropped off in my estimations somewhat with age where as Once Upon A Time In America has grown.

I would actually reverse of your point as whilst films like Goodfellas might show their lead characters in a worse light I think they do so because really there main intension is being a "cool gangster exposé" which needs a rather simple "crime doesn't pay" message bolted on to justify it.

By comparison I think Once Upon A Time In America is much less interested in showing "cool gangsters", it shows us enough to understand the appeal of the lifestyle but mostly I think its concerned with its characters and building mood. That actually part of why it doesn't explain the plot elements mentioned in depth, it doesn't want to distract from that.

If its in love with anything besides its characters I would say its much moreso its setting rather than gangsterism although the atmosphere created from it feeds nicely into the characters stories.



Movie Forums Squirrel Jumper
Well here is what I cannot wrap my head around. In the movie Max is now 'secretary Bailey'. I don't know a lot about American politics but I am guessing someone who is a secretary is a big deal. So if Noodles wanted to find out who Secretary Bailey was, couldn't he get a photograph of him from somewhere? Or were photographs of powerful politicians hard to get back in the late 60s?