Withholding Subtitles - West Side Story

Isn't this a problem with any scene in any film that is subtitled? Do we not always have to divide our attention between text and performance with subs?



There are no perfect solutions. We might

(a) live in a cinematic world where everyone is always speaking our native tongue (just have characters speak English all the time),

(b) insert an English overdub into foreign language films, so that we can hear the words and focus on the performance (at the cost of losing the original vocal performance and having a mismatch of mouth and sound),

(c) split our attention between performance and text, or

(d) just sit dumbfounded, not knowing what is being said

Option (a) is convenient, but ain't much on verisimilitude (e.g., Star Trek, where they journey to strange new worlds to speak English with everyone!). Option (b) is the most pragmatic/easy for foreign language films, but also seems to result in a lot of mischief, if not vandalism of the original film. Option (c) is the high-brow option, but is the most cognitively challenging. Option (d) cannot work for too long before people will just shrug and exit the theater.



Sounds plausible to me.



But again, our example is that of a short period of untranslated speech. If the Godfather were shot with 90% of the dialogue in Italian, we would have to have subtitles or a dub.



And the point in that scene, as I understand your analysis (which is rather astute), is not that this scene forces non-Italian "speakers to listen closer to keep up, or even miss a few jokes," both of which being "part of the point." Rather, we are pushed out so as to enter the emotional subjectivity of Pacino. We are being excluded, but not because it would "disrespectful" to speakers of Italian to feel as if they were not part of the intended audience. This wasn't done for a moral scruple, but rather an aesthetic result, to which I say, "sure, cool, great."

I see your point. But then, I also think that ultimately the audience will want to understand the “insideness”, whether by googling or deferring to people who did get it. This is another problem we have to contend with now in that when something is not understood, this information is likely to be sought out, rather than someone assuming that it was intended. So on second/later watch one might see it differently.

Love it. I agree with the gist, I guess - whenever I watch anything dubbed, it does present itself as a completely different film than the original, regardless of subtitles. In a sense, it’s a privilege to be able to see film A and film C, for example. But I wonder how much one can switch off the bilingual side.

Absolutely. Sounds like common sense to me.

I agree. It would be quite refreshing to see subtitles for both. I still don’t get the drama - would English-speakers really complain about subtitles for English? Though maybe it would be “courage”, seeing how everyone loves to complain about everything.

The apps were the first thing I thought of. Not sure if they are that advanced, but certainly worth a try.

I can totally see that happening sooner rather than later. Bad Bunny’s all-Spanish album El Último Tour del Mundo reached No. 1, the first time in Billboard history, and the guy doesn’t even speak any English himself. Spanish rocks.

Well Spielberg said he didn't put subtitles in because he thought it was offensive to hispanics, but if an American movie in English is shown in Spanish speakig nations, do they withhold subtitling because they feel that it would be offensive to Americans?

I think The Godfather and Saving Private Ryan are exceptions because I could still understand the plot in the scenes that are not subtitled, but if West Side Story causes the plot to not be understood by not having subtitles, then there is a problem.

This can’t be right. It’s one of my favorite movies & I don’t watch anything without subtitles.

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Sure. It all depends on how it is done, right? If it is done right, then it adds a layer of meaning for audience to seek out later, if they wish. It adds a bit of mystery for a monolingual first-time viewer. If it is done wrong, on the other hand, people will be upset at being left out.

Suppose, for example, the joke were also at the expense of an audience member who didn't get it? EX: Years ago some of my friends were hanging out and someone made a comment in Tagalog about the one member of the group who was not Filipino. The group had a giggle, but person who wasn't in on the joke didn't appreciate it. And then when he pressed the issue and found out that what was said was "black boy" it almost came down to fisticuffs. It was a bad scene.

Again, my point is that what is objectionable is NOT that a portion of the audience is temporarily excluded, but rather How and Why they are excluded.

Sometimes I will watch a foreign film with a dub and the subtitles and wonder at the gap between the two.

I don't know that you really can. However, you can consciously be aware of what the monolingual portion of the audience is missing.

Dramatic Irony is when the audience knows something that the characters on the screen don't. What is it called when only the part of the audience is put in possession of full knowledge of what is happening?


Think of a theater-app which send the info directly to your phone. You pay to get access to an audio feed for your ear bud which kicks in for the foreign language bits or you get subs that are projected on your smart glasses. If augmented reality is the future, this seems like a natural case-type for it.

No subtitles for that line for the theatrical release of the film.

Yes, in the original release in theaters, sans subtitles, no one was aware of what was actually said at that time.

Well, maybe @Thief could chime in here. He lives in Puerto Rico, so he might be able to tell us if this was a sore point for some of the PR viewers.

This actually reminds me of a film I watched earlier this year. Mother India. In it, the film is subtitled during their everyday conversation. Once they break into song, however, the subtitles vanish. Looking it up on line, it apparently doesn’t have the subs available for the songs. Which is fine, they aren’t really necessary to further the plot.

I saw West Side Story today. Excellent film, one of the best of the year. I think it worked well without adding subtitles. I didn't feel subtitles were necessary in this instance.

Right, of course. Haven’t been in a movie theater for many years now.

There used to be this poster named Yarn (or maybe it was YARN) that mostly churned out this kind of stuff. Semi-controversial, clickbait sort of threads designed to stir up sh*t. He was either chased off or ignored at RT and the Corrie and Kateland. He may or may not have been an alias of this other guy named Osman. He'll keep on doing this because you know, trolls gotta troll. If this is him he must be happy as a pig in sh*t. He finally found a forum that puts up with his style of posting. Congratulations. If I'm wrong then apologies. But I've always found this type of thing insulting.

Well, among the people who've seen the film there seems to be a consensus that the lack of subtitles isn't a particularly big deal. So whatever Spielberg's desired PR effect (and maybe people's insta-outrage about things is just helping the film and rewarding the quote? Has anyone considered that?), it sounds like it's just lip service and, shocker, one of the most successful directors in history is probably not going to do something that makes his film difficult for most viewers to watch.

Pretty sure it’s has been established Carax is not those posters, considering the messages I’ve received and what I’ve seen posted towards/about him in the past everyone was already familiar with him and his username.
Also, in regards to “finding a forum willing to put up with his style of posting”, that’s only until a line is crossed,which doesn’t seem to have been the casein this thread, and considering what I have heard of RT, it wasn’t exactly moderated effectively, compared to here.*

I am not Osman.



I was YARN on other forums.



I was never banned from any of the aforementioned forums.



Make the most it.

Yeah, kindly settle your past forum feuds privately, guys. Bringing that stuff up as a warning is, I've noticed, almost always self-fulfilling.

Obviously, everyone gets a bit of leeway when cinematic issues naturally touch on political or cultural ones. But you can safely assume I'm able to discern basic patterns when someone seems disproportionately interested in those issues or makes a habit of walking right up to the line, and issue warnings (which are private by default) when called for.

I stand corrected.*

Either way, disagreement with, say a lack of subtitles, doesn’t necessarily mean you’re trolling.

Although….wait…do you live under a bridge?

Last time I checked it was a house with nothing but sky above, although in this economy any one of could all find ourselves living under a bridge at some point.

Yeah, I wasn't throwing shade at Yoda or anything. There's always been guys like this. And there always will be. To each their own.


EDIT: I was answering your mention so I hadn't seen any of the last few posts. The matter is settled. Like I said, to each their own.