Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act

Probably going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I did read the points you had raised previously that your recycling here and again, I thought the subtle approach to the reveal was masterful for both first time viewers and repeated viewing. I will agree with you though that the movies not perfect but what is. Silence of the lambs is a movie that comes close but of course thats subjective. I think tampering with the third act that way you propose may sound good (to you or others) on paper but what other elements would it distrub? As for why it wasn't as critically hailed and had the least box office success. I wasn't actually aware of this. And I'm sure there are a myriad of reason, maybe some of them are related to yours however I would propose Iroquois opinion sounds reasonable to me. I feel that the argument, that this film requires repeated viewing to appreciate actuallly strengthens the film rather than detracts from it (if thats what you were implying). But thats assuming the general public didn't enjoy as much the first time, which would be hard to gauge, again i appreciate the reviews and box office numbers you stated.

As for ROTJ lol. The Ewoks yes could have worked, just like Wookies could have worked, but looking back at it. It was almost silly, child like that these furball bunnies could launch an effective assault on heavy armoured and armed imperials. I'm being very specific here, and I know when people do that its takes things out of context, for example, the movie was ruined because there was an explosion in space and space has no sound. But, just revising it, just would have been way cooler (lol), better suited, a better tone, more adult to have something a bit more realistic. But anyway, there are a fair few probs with it but I still like it very much and it has a lovely and emotional ending that I was happy with. Ranking them would be 5, 4, 6 then prequels, last and least force awakens which I despise.

The scene was fine. The scenes preceding it were botched.

A 2 hour movie typically has 8 sequences. The carbonite scene is supposed to be the climax of the 7th sequence. But the sequence never gained any traction so the climax had no build up. The carbonite scene would have been stronger for first time viewers with the proper build up.

There's nothing subtle about Darth Vader standing with Luke on the edge of a walkway above a deep abyss in high winds and him telling him, "I am your father," accompanied by dramatic music. That's called an epic scene. A subtle reveal would be something like what we get in Bladerunner, where the audience has to take a minute to figure it out.

And I'm afraid the reveal wasn't masterful for most first time viewers at all. In Leonard Maltin's interview with George Lucas, Leonard asked him, "What kind of feedback did you get to that incredible, climactic scene in Empire when we all learn who Darth Vader really is?" Lucas responded, "I was nervous about it but in the end, I didn't get much of a reaction out of it. People were curious as to whether it was true or not."

It wouldn't disturb anything that came before it. It also wouldn't disturb much after it. It would create some transition problems but nothing a competent writer can't smooth out. If worse comes to worst, when a group of scenes aren't working, sometimes it's back to the drawing board. Throw them all out and start from scratch.

It's like you said, the reviews and numbers are all we have to go by. But I'll tell you an interesting story. I'd watched the Star Wars movies as a kid but hadn't seen them for years until I was an adult. I was surprised to find that the reactions of audiences to ESB in 1980, based on the reviews and Lucas' comments, were the same as mine.

I then watched the trilogy with two others, one who hadn't seen it since she was a kid and one who hadn't seen it at all and, without any coaxing from me, they reacted the same way to all the same parts I did. For me, that's gospel. And everything else I could find from the past confirms it.

I'm not sure if a film is strengthened by the fact that it's only appreciated later but there are definitely films that weren't appreciated at the time of their release due, I believe, to no fault of the film.

The reaction of many first time viewers of Chinatown (1974) is only so so. But then it stays in their head. They watch it a second and third time and think it's absolutely brilliant. It's still revered by many film students, historians and critics today as the greatest screenplay ever written.

But that movie really was subtle. It's a super-intelligent, complex detective story with many layers and it takes repeated viewings to catch and appreciate all the details. The beautiful thing about Star Wars is it's simplicity.

Godfather II got very bad reviews but then went on to win Best Picture the very next year. Chances are because it wasn't Godfather I. Once they got over the initial disappointment of it being something different (especially in style and structure) they decided that they liked that one as well.

ESB definitely suffered from some of that. It wasn't Star Wars and I think people were expecting another revolution in visual effects (which they didn't get).

But my friends and I weren't of the generation who saw those special effects for the first time. And we didn't have to wait 3 years between each film. We watched them back to back in one day, the effects were nothing new and some of them a little dated. We already had scenes from all three films floating around in our collective memories and knew the Star Wars saga wasn't all fun and lighthearted.

And yet we all had some of the same puzzled, mediocre feelings with ESB that many people in 1980 did.

Just to clear up, the subtle approach to reveal, which I said, was something I thought you had agreed with. Not the reveal itself, which I didnt say. I believe you were the one that pointed out that there was no lead up and this was one of your criticisms. The Lucas quote you provide is all well and good but you wanted that wow Aha moment. I'm sure some people felt that way. You apparently didn't, same with the reviewer you quoted. It's subjective, its a film, again, I didnt have a problem and it works as a film, as a whole. It would be hard to convince me otherwise. Can't say I disagree with anything else you've said except claiming that tampering with the script, altering some scenes would change things for the better. I say don't fix whats not broken.

Fair enough. But I would be curious to know what, in your mind, is the difference between a subtle lead up and no lead up and which category ESB falls in and why.

Sorry, I don't understand. Are you saying Lucas didn't want the reveal to be a wow Aha moment? His comments all but prove that for first-time audiences, it wasn't. I mean, who would know better their reaction than George Lucas?

You'd have to tell me what it would be that would convince you. Yes, there are always a minority of strange people who will feel something differently to everyone else, but we're talking about the average viewer, aren't we?

That's the entire point. The sequence is broken which is one of the reasons, I believe, Empire originally got such a mediocre response.

I realize these are just my opinions and not all people will feel the same. And I appreciate the time you've taken to examine them. But all the evidence from the reviews and Lucas' comments suggests to my mind that I'm right or at least pointed in the right direction.

It would be hard to convince me because I've seen the movie but should I revisit it in the near future I will keep your comments in mind. If those reviews are what you say and/or also support your view that the third act was botched then you do have support. Although the Lucas quote is what it is, it's pretty much one line, without and explanation and from my observations of him, he seems to be a pretty low key guy, furthermore it left the audience wanting more which is either a good or bad thing and also may relate to what another poster Iroquois commented. But you do have the Lucas comment and the reviews which may support your theory and you maybe right or pointed in the right direction.

If we are talking about the average viewer, really I can't speak for them, you know my thoughts on the matter, I know yours, you know your friends and you know the reviewers you have read whom I wouldn't call average viewers. Again you might try to gauge them via box office result as you have made and this is a fair point to make.

Honestly I feel that broken and botched are very strong words that you have used. It's difficult for me to relate them to this film. I could understand (and I'm assuming) maybe you have read a How to make a film book and certain key elements are missing. For me, not following that exact formula doesn't detract what I felt and basically, I like a film based on emotion. Whether that limits my view or not perhaps.....

They won't say the third act is botched. Most people can't usually tell you what is wrong with a film, just whether they liked or not. Empire didn't achieve the cult status it has now until after RotJ.

What does him being a low key guy have to do with anything? How many lines do you need? It's pretty self explanatory. If he had said, 'People went crazy over it. They were completely shocked,' how many more lines would you have needed to decide your own position was correct?

It left audiences saying, 'that's it??' That's a bad thing. There's a difference between a cliff hanger and a story cut abruptly short.

Yes, I'm a semi-professional screenwriter and aspiring filmmaker.

All good films elicit emotion. In order to do it with maximum impact, the rule of rising tension must be honored. You may have felt it powerfully when you watched it or you could have been an avid fan or you could have forgotten your original feelings in some parts (which happens to people a lot in my experience).

But there's two major things wrong in this film: one is that Vader's motives are unclear and never addressed until the very end (which is why he never became an cultural idol until after RotJ) and two that the 3rd act is weaker than the rest of the film in parts which left people wanting more in a bad way. Many viewers were left feeling empty.

Ok cool, good luck with your film making career.

i thought op was either a troll or satirical. ep 7 last act is arguably the best act in film history.