Sedai, Pyro Tramp and all the others who doubted Christopher Nolan

Indeed, and that's where The Prestige fits in. It's a film in which he is describing himself as a filmmaker. Or at least hinting athow he sees himself. The director as a magacian, and Nolan IS the cinematic equivalent of a magacian.

He'll wait until you're wet with anticipation and sweep the rug from what right under you. Whenever you warn people you're gonna play some trick on them, you're inviting close scrutiny. But Nolan is more than tricks. He's interested in the human condition and our perception as viewers change depending on the situation and what's happening on screen. It's never a unified response. At least that's what The Prestige suggested.

Why do so many Chris Nolan films have some of twist/surprise ending? I've also noticed I dislike all the double, triple crosses and they seem over-plotted. I watched The Following and even his first film was that way. His most straightfoward film is Batman Begins which I think is far better than The Dark Knight, which had a convoluted - too much going on plot. Memento is his best film and a grand experiment that works. Insomnia is very good. Inception is junk with a lack of characters, interaction and real human dialogue. The Following was a bit silly I thought and The Prestige starts out well but again the twist and surprise moments are too forceful. You can do art house story telling without jerking your audience around.

Here is a challenge for anyone who likes Nolan and Inception. I want you to watch the film and see if there is any moment in the film that doesn't cut or edit within 10 seconds. Also try listening to the soundtrack and music and play the scenes in your mind without the music. Listen to the dialogue and see if there is a scene longer than a couple minutes of talking that doesn't simply serve to push the plot along. Inception IS NOT a good movie. I'm really surprised you guys don't see that.

You'll realize how hollow and nothing Inception really is. Yes it's a cool idea, that's been done before but enhanced, but cool ideas don't inherently make cool movies.

And quit posting about how I am wrong and go watch Inception and do your homework.

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Yep and he sure as **** must've pulled the tricks out on you, regardless of what it says about the human condition.

Welcome back, Prestige!

Maybe it's a generational thing. Maybe it's the comic books one grows up with (I never cared much for super-heros or the strange looking bad guys in the Batman comics). Maybe it's things look differently to folks in Britain as opposed to me here in the states. But I did watch The Dark Knight on TV because folks in this forum seem so high on it. Sorry to say, I didn't care for it. I liked the Batman film they made some years ago primarily because I liked Nicholson's performance. But this one just didn't hold my interest.

One of the things I liked least was that after a 15-minute talk with the guy responsible for killing his girl and burning half his face off in an attempted murder, the previously straight-laced DA turns on people he had known and worked with for years. His hating them for not saving his girlfriend from the fatal situation in which the Joker had put her just didn't make sense.

Actually, he didn't really like them all much to begin with. It's made pretty clear in the earlier scenes of the film that he doesn't trust most of them and regards the vast majority as corrupt and unreliable. He forms an uneasy truce out of necessity, but I'd say Gordon is the only one he actually comes to trust or believe at all. And correspondingly, his confrontation with Gordon is the most measured, and the one in which he hesitates the most.

I won't tell you how wrong you are, you're entitled to your own opinion here.

Here's my two cents: When I see a movie in the theater, I tend to judge that movie based on how I'm feeling within the first 2 minutes of the credits rolling. I will never forget how "Inception" made me feel. Based on the memory of my own personal reaction, I know that the movie was brilliant. If I wanted to, I could watch it and re-watch it and analyze it and probably come up with numerous critiques...but why do that?

If you left the theater and didn't feel anything special, that's ok. But don't knock on people who had a genuinely amazing "Inception" experience by suggesting that they should do their "homework." Come on.

No offence, i've used this phrase before (it's not mine) but Inception is a movie to make dumb people feel smart. I saw a lot of the criticism and hollowness of Inception after the first two minutes of credits rolling. If you enjoyed it, fair enough but it's not all that.

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I must be a total dumb ass.

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I tried to avoid categorising two camps. Lucky you for being able to switch off and enjoy films. I spent it questioning plot oddities.

Well, make your case, then. You're not giving anyone anything to go on other than suggesting an awful lot of us are stupid or not thinking critically.

It's late so it's not going to be strong. SOME people who watch films on a face level enjoy Inception because they're wowed at the complexity of it and therefore, as they're willingly forced into thinking, assume it must be good. They have their 'mind-blown' and don't understand a lot of it and put it on a pedestal for mostly the fact, they've not had that experience before. And more power for Inception for doing it. SOME other people watch the film and question the convoluted plot and try and unravel it but come up short, as it's not the complex film it's posing as.

I enjoyed it and got the Blu-Ray on release date, so don't have me down as a hater. It's just I don't consider it to be a masterpiece. My opinion against it grows with the more people I see hail it as a masterpiece, as many use the criteria of 'i don't understand it- it's amazing' or 'my mind's been blown- best film ever'. Yeah, ok if you're not film literate than you might react like that but that's why i'm saying it makes dumb people feel smart.


I'm not saying it's not an enjoyable film, i'm just saying in response to filmgirl and in defence of Viddy, it is flawed and I realised that after the credits rolled.

Sedai, did you watch the film and think OMG, that's the smartest film ever made? Or did you enjoy it for what it is, a good bit of Summer film making? That's the difference i'm trying to establish, though probably not very well. I'm not trying to say if you enjoyed it, you're dumb or you're not being critical. I enjoyed it. I'm saying people who have nothing but praise for it, can potentially fall into the category.

I get all that, and it's true that mind-bending films tend to get a disproportionate amount of praise from people who just haven't seen many films of that nature, but...how does that actually change its quality? Inception is what it is no matter how many 16-year-olds think it's the best thing ever made. The fact that it attracts that type of audience more than other films shouldn't be held against it.

What I'm really asking is why you think the plot "[comes] up short," not whether or not it lives up to some nameless moviegoer's ridiculous enthusiasm for it.

Your logic is as follows:
(1) Critics do not like "Inception"
(2) Dumb people like "Inception"

So my only way out of being dumb is to not like "Inception"?

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

The plot? I wish I had more energy and it was fresher in my mind but the whole shared limbo thing struck me as stupid, the kicks and the rules about them seemed to suit the narrative more than any sense of internal logic, the motivation was weak, Ellen Page was clearly and painfully only their to spout exposition. My main point I was saying was that in the '2 minutes after credits roll' remembered thinking a lot of it was unnecessarily convoluted or silly, not how amazing it was.

My argument was more, if you think Inception surpasses sliced bread and is flawless, then you aren't being critical enough maybe because you lack the skills to be or haven't seen enough films but 'dumb' was an easier shorthand. And i said makes them feel clever. Did you feel clever at the end? If you didn't but just enjoyed then the statement doesn't apply to you.

http://allsp.com/ Season 14 - Episode Insheeption

Fair enough.

I thought Nolan was insane for trying it, and a damn good film maker for pulling it off. I liked the score, the performances, and the fact that it left room for interpretation at the end. The film attempts to use dream logic, which is whack, and I think the logic is pulled off pretty well. I do think you are correct in that the logic first and foremost serves the narrative, but I don't consider that as large a transgression as some folks seem to. I really like the film a lot, but I can see why some wouldn't care for it or that others think it's too calculated.

Now crack that Guinness and then hit the sack!

Phew, didn't think i'd be able to make my point come across. Though, how much more interesting would it have been with a lower budget and less focus on everyone having guns? Ironically, i thought the dream logic could have been explored more instead of touches of 'subconscious turning against intruders' and Mal.

Good call, preference is just that. Inception left me feeling nothing, but slightly annoyed and wanting to grab the screen to hold it still or write some dialogue for the characters.

The fact that you judge the movie within the first two minutes is a nice assessment of your subjective experience, but it's not really a good objective way to review/assess a film. But now we get into a bigger issue. Can a film be definitely and unviersally great or awful? To certain extent, yes. I don't think a person can deny the greatness of Citizen Kane or The Maltese Falcon as they are both great, outside of how I feel. On the other side a person may feel a rush of adreanline from watching the latest Michael Bay film, but does this feeling equate to good writing, filming, etc? Maybe, maybe not, but I tend to say no. Classic example for me is Commando. I remember watching that film for the first time in high school and many subsequent viewings and afterwards I want to go kill a furry animal and say a one-liner while doing it, but the film having an effect on me has nothing to do with me realizing that it's a stupid movie.

I'm not sure a lower budget would be helpful, but less guns could. I'm also not sure if you're saying it's a dumb movie, or just a lot dumber than some ***hole thinks it is. Yeah the dream logic is convolution on an almost MGS4 scale, but they do go over it for the first hour of the movie. My favorite bit, which I thought was brilliant is when Dicaprio is talking Fischer into believing that he's there to protect him. By the time he convinces him of that, the whole dream structure, all just fits perfectly into place and becomes completely excusable as a reason for epic action scenes to happen.

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