A Question of Western Faith.

Lets Define terms shall we? If we are going to debate the semantics on "rapture". Or more precisely, "End Times".

Christian Doctrine:

Jesus returns, summons Christians into Heaven, and a Tribulation is enacted upon Earth.

Islamic Doctrine:

The dead are resurrected, a fulfillment of a divine plan for creation, and immortality of soul. The righteous are rewarded in Heaven, the bad go to Hell.

Judaic Doctrine, (I'll use your example, since we're agreeing with one another anyway, yet you seem to only want to hear yourself talk so here's it from your mouth):


Now that I've defined my statements. How about clearing up some of yours?
Define: Haver?

I'm unclear of any kind.

Define: Mesiah. Person, place or thing here? I'm confused.

Is this the new Nintendo Wii II?

Don't stop... Belieivng! It doesn't have the same ring to it...

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I'm taking this that you are of Jewish faith. So let's propose this as a question from that branch of monotheism. It can be argued that the end times according to the Judaic belief system is less pre-ordained than the other determinations of Christian and Islamic belief. But if the Tanakh can be seen as the word of God among Jewish peoples, is this prophecy, by its very nature of being prophetic, be seen as Deterministic? If it is not, I would like an explanation as to why. Jews are given the Free Will to create this utopian society which is at one with God. However, since it was prophesied that it would happen. From the word of God. It contradicts itself.

There is such a thing as "Compatibilism", but if we are bringing this philosophy into the mix. I would like it explained.

I have tried to clear my intentions with this misnomer many times now. I suggest reading the entire page(s) for more clarification.

The Jewish end of days means the world is still here as before, but God's human messenger creates a new enlightemnment which the entire population accepts willingly and everyone lives in peace and harmony. Nobody is judged, nobody is expelled from the human paradise. Everybody is getting along because they choose to.

Not very probable, but it doen't fit the description of a rapture.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Halfangel337
Because G-d wants us to love Him because we want to love Him. He doesn't want us to be forced into it, and so whether we choose to love Him or not, believe in Him or not, it is for us to decide during our lives.

I'm taking this that you are of Jewish faith. So let's propose this as a question from that branch of monotheism. It can be argued that the end times according to the Judaic belief system is less pre-ordained than the other determinations of Christian and Islamic belief. But if the Tanakh can be seen as the word of God among Jewish peoples, is this prophecy, by its very nature of being prophetic, be seen as Deterministic? If it is not, I would like an explanation as to why. Jews are given the Free Will to create this utopian society which is at one with God. However, since it was prophesied that it would happen. From the word of God. It contradicts itself.


I guess this is your main point, prophecy makes it not free will. I don't get that. If Nostradamus really had psychic power and predicted, as some claim, the rise of Hitler in the twentieth century, does that mean Nostradamus was interfering with free will?

DSM: The sky is blue.

Will: No it isn't! It's blue!

DSM: Like I said it's blue...

Will: You think you're so gosh darn smart with your words and stuff! I'm telling you! It's blue!

DSM: Which is what I said, I said...

Will: BLUE DAMN IT!!!

DSM: I'm not disagreeing here, like WE'VE established. It's blue!

Will: Don't talk down to me about blue! ... I know all kinds a blue...

DSM: *Sigh* I'm sure you do... *Hands Will the paste* Careful, ya eat to much of that and your poo'll stick.

Will: Blue!

DSM: That's right there Will... Blue indeed... *walks away*

Wait what? I have no idea where to go from here because this paragraph is all sorts of bat-s**t crazy.

http://www.history.com/videos/nostra...r#dark-visions

I am aware of this. Now explain the correlation between points A and Z, where did points B, then C, etc. go?

Cool video. Nostradamus rocks.

No, I have read the whole thread, and I understand what you both Will and Dog Star have pointed out. I'm not trying to jump on Will's train. And yes, I am Jewish, but I have also studied many religions. It is our fee will to do as we please, It is G-d's free will to return/appear/send back the messiah/send the messiah in the first place/whatever.

I'm further going to take this argument as you think that once said rapture happens, we are all going to be happy and follow the word of G-d like good sheep. I think that is what you mean by free will vs determinism.

Having said that, and taking that argument, I again thought that only the pious would be saved. Others would be punished. As to what Will is saying about everyone suddenly following G-d and being happy, that doesn't sound at all like free will. That doesn't even sound remotely probable, in my opinion. That sounds more like we have free will, but only to show us the error of our ways when we excersize it. Hey, maybe thats the whole idea in the first place.

Thank you for that, it is getting rather tiresome now.

Now hold on, let's take this a step back:

Now according you, we don't have Free Will or Determinism in this statement. This statement, and you must correct me if I'm wrong, sounds a lot like "Compatibilism", or something like it. I would like this explained before we go much further. It counters this statement:

Now you're making presumptions about my statement which I have not made either way, and to clarify, this is not what I'm stating. I'm making a case against the word of God. Not the outcomes of any particular religious dogma. Which, if you'll excuse me, renders the case of your final paragraph null-and-void, so there is no need to respond to it.

It is a form of Compatibilism I suppose. What I'm saying is that everything in our lives affects our choices and our choices effect everything else to come. If I grew up learning or believing that I should just take what I want, then chose to steal a car because of this, then landed in prison, it is my choices that have set me on an inevitible course. Because others around me also have free will, the free will to either report my crime or not, the free will to judge me or not, and other such, that is what makes the course inevitible. because someone, somewhere is acting upon their own free will in direct opposition to mine. because we have the ability to choose, yet must be held responsible for our choices. Yes, I think this is Compatibilism.

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Explain this Compatibilism in this religious context before we move forward. I would like to see how this vision of Compatibilism fits within the context of religious Free Will and its Determined outcome.

Okay, according to Jewish Law, one must complete 613 Mitzvahs in order to be with the Lord. We don't know to what purpose each mitvot is, and some believe that doing the deed for a purpose defeats the actual deed itself (meaning you should do it just to be nice, not to get ahead). If I, through my free will, do not complete said Mitzvahs in my lifetime, G-d will send my soul to Sheol to wait to be reincarnated to try again. It is only after I complete, through my own volition, without being prompted or knowing what my Mitzvahs are, 613 specific good deeds do I get to be with G-d. I will never know what they are, and my soul will continue to come back until I've dont them. So I HAVE to have free will to eventually reach my destiny and be with G-d. If I didn't they would not be done voluntarily, from the kindness of my heart. I have the choice to do them, because me making that choice or not shows G-d that I am either ready for Olam Ba-ha or that I must go back to Sheol again. Make sense?

*I was under the wrong name accidentally. Stupid password saver*

God sure is a popular Guy. Everybody wants to hang out with Him forever.

Yes but not really. I know collect-em-all video games that are less strict than that.

Anyone have any gum?

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Why does everyone want to free me?

They only want to free you to do what they tell you.