Definitely, but I'm still willing (would like to, even) address the conceptual questions, since this may very well come up again.
Next Countdown Poll: Genre/Type
What kind of countdown should be next?
25.00%
13 votes
25.00%
13 votes
61.54%
32 votes
19.23%
10 votes
23.08%
12 votes
23.08%
12 votes
52 votes. You may not vote on this poll
I would think safe to say foreign has won
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
And another point that I just thought of, how many people do you think voted for foreign, who might have voted for something else, if the options included either foreign (general) AND foreign (regional)?
So basically, it seems like foreign is getting the votes of two categories, not just one, (which would explain the landslide victory), because some people have made it clear that they don't want foreign as their first choice if the wrong format wins.
So basically, it seems like foreign is getting the votes of two categories, not just one, (which would explain the landslide victory), because some people have made it clear that they don't want foreign as their first choice if the wrong format wins.
...I don't think that's right. By this logic you could say any option is benefitting unfairly if only we discuss the ways in which it might be sub-categorized. IE: if we'd had a discussion about whether to include Dark Comedies or Horror-Comedy under Comedy, would Comedy suddenly have an advantage on the other options because it benefitted from three "categories"? This isn't even a hypothetical, since I believe we discussed whether Neo-Noirs should count as Noirs.
If anything, it's the opposite, in that someone might like the idea of one kind of Foreign list but not another. You actually made this point yourself: "...some people have made it clear that they don't want foreign as their first choice if the wrong format wins." So if anything, it's hurting it.
In fact, it would clearly be unfair to split categories up unless you have multiple votes, since otherwise you'll have a lot of people who like both but have to coordinate their choice to avoid splitting the vote and getting neither.
If anything, it's the opposite, in that someone might like the idea of one kind of Foreign list but not another. You actually made this point yourself: "...some people have made it clear that they don't want foreign as their first choice if the wrong format wins." So if anything, it's hurting it.
In fact, it would clearly be unfair to split categories up unless you have multiple votes, since otherwise you'll have a lot of people who like both but have to coordinate their choice to avoid splitting the vote and getting neither.
I think in this case foreign wins comfortably regardless of how voting was set up.
I would think safe to say foreign has won
So Foreign sure looks like the winner, can we move on now?
We Need a Host for it, Yoda said in an earlier post that he has made tweaks to MoFo so that the next Host/Curator will have it much easier....So who wants to Host? and have all the fun
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
I'd have like to have seen that, too, but only because I'm curious, and not because I think it would produce a better/more amenable result.
I don't think that's right. By this logic you could say any option is benefitting unfairly if only we discuss the ways in which it might be sub-categorized. IE: if we'd had a discussion about whether to include Dark Comedies or Horror-Comedy under Comedy, would Comedy suddenly have an advantage on the other options because it benefitted from three "categories"? This isn't even a hypothetical, since I believe we discussed whether Neo-Noirs should count as Noirs.
If anything, it's the opposite, in that someone might like the idea of one kind of Foreign list but not another. You actually made this point yourself: "...some people have made it clear that they don't want foreign as their first choice if the wrong format wins." So if anything, it's hurting it.
In fact, it would clearly be unfair to split categories up unless you have multiple votes, since otherwise you'll have a lot of people who like both but have to coordinate their choice to avoid splitting the vote and getting neither.
I don't think that's right. By this logic you could say any option is benefitting unfairly if only we discuss the ways in which it might be sub-categorized. IE: if we'd had a discussion about whether to include Dark Comedies or Horror-Comedy under Comedy, would Comedy suddenly have an advantage on the other options because it benefitted from three "categories"? This isn't even a hypothetical, since I believe we discussed whether Neo-Noirs should count as Noirs.
If anything, it's the opposite, in that someone might like the idea of one kind of Foreign list but not another. You actually made this point yourself: "...some people have made it clear that they don't want foreign as their first choice if the wrong format wins." So if anything, it's hurting it.
In fact, it would clearly be unfair to split categories up unless you have multiple votes, since otherwise you'll have a lot of people who like both but have to coordinate their choice to avoid splitting the vote and getting neither.
In reference to splitting the categories, the difference is that I haven't heard anyone say that they have no interest in the other genres if certain sub-genres are, or are not, included. People have asked whether or not neo-noir is considered part of noir, but nobody has said something like they want a noir countdown, but only if neo-noir isn't eligible, or they want a comedy countdown, but they have no interest if dark comedies are excluded.
When we did the horror countdown, we didn't make it only slashers, or only psychological horrors, etc. When we did the (unofficial) sci-fi countdown, we didn't exclude sci-fi horror movies, or sci-fi fantasy movies. So why should foreign movies be broken down into sub-categories if nothing else has been done that way? Based on the comments in these poll threads, the results of this question could change the results of the poll.
__________________
.
If I answer a game thread correctly, just skip my turn and continue with the game.
OPEN FLOOR.
.
If I answer a game thread correctly, just skip my turn and continue with the game.
OPEN FLOOR.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
I'm gonna reproduce an earlier response because it's actually the core of the idea here, even though I think we're not really talking about it:
This is the logic, in a nutshell. With most people okay with several options and so many options to choose from, we're in danger of having a "winner" with a mere plurality of the vote. With multiple votes, we'll get something that most people find acceptable. That's it, that's the whole idea. So any argument to the contrary needs to explain why that is a bad goal, or why it won't actually achieve said goal.
Obviously if your goal is to find out what everyone's first choice is, this won't do that very well, but that's not the only way of voting. I think it's also reasonable to vote to select something the most people find acceptable, which is what I think this does.
So you're looking to make the most people happy, rather than finding out the legitimate most popular genre for the next countdown? That's a different goal than what I thought it was when this was discussed in the previous thread. I thought we were trying to find out which genre most people wanted the most, not which genre the most people wanted in general.
That explains the multiple votes, but I still don't agree with it.
And just for the record, my complaint isn't about that foreign is winning this poll. I would have been against the multiple votes regardless of which genre was winning, even if it was something like musicals. As I said earlier in the previous thread (when I voted for decades), I was already expecting foreign to win either way, so I'm not a bit surprised at the results.
Here's a potentially useful thought experiment: have you ever had to figure out where to order food from with a group of people? You can just tally votes, sure, but that means someone's always disappointed. You avoid that by ordering from a place that maybe isn't everyone's first choice, but that everyone likes. That's exactly what this is.
And that's no small thing, either, since people can either choose to participate in it or not when the time comes. So picking something that meets the threshold of acceptability to the most number of people is a pretty big deal.
And that's no small thing, either, since people can either choose to participate in it or not when the time comes. So picking something that meets the threshold of acceptability to the most number of people is a pretty big deal.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
This is the logic, in a nutshell. With most people okay with several options and so many options to choose from, we're in danger of having a "winner" with a mere plurality of the vote. With multiple votes, we'll get something that most people find acceptable. That's it, that's the whole idea. So any argument to the contrary needs to explain why that is a bad goal, or why it won't actually achieve said goal.
So if multiple, equally-ranked votes is a fair system, why do we rank the movies when we submit our lists? Why not just have each person submit a list of their top 25 movies, and each movie is given only 1 point, regardless of its placement on the list? Wouldn't that give us a more "acceptable" top 100 list?
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
In reference to splitting the categories, the difference is that I haven't heard anyone say that they have no interest in the other genres if certain sub-genres are, or are not, included. People have asked whether or not neo-noir is considered part of noir, but nobody has said something like they want a noir countdown, but only if neo-noir isn't eligible, or they want a comedy countdown, but they have no interest if dark comedies are excluded. When we did the horror countdown, we didn't make it only slashers, or only psychological horrors, etc. When we did the (unofficial) sci-fi countdown, we didn't exclude sci-fi horror movies, or sci-fi fantasy movies. So why should foreign movies be broken down into sub-categories if nothing else has been done that way?
This reminds me of an old Yogi Berra quote: "You better cut the pizza in four slices because I'm not hungry enough to eat eight." The category of Foreign contains all Foreign Language films. We can talk all day about whether to drill down deeper into that or not, but we can't make that basic category bigger, which means it can't really garner any kind of artificial competitive advantage as a result of that talk. It seems clear on net it should be a disadvantage.
Based on the comments in these poll threads, the results of this question could change the results of the poll.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
So you're looking to make the most people happy, rather than finding out the legitimate most popular genre for the next countdown? That's a different goal than what I thought it was when this was discussed in the previous thread. I thought we were trying to find out which genre most people wanted the most, not which genre the most people wanted in general.
Imagine 30% of people put Comedy first, but the other 70% have it last. And imagine 29% have Foreign first and the other 71% have it second. In this scenario, Comedy would "win" in a single-vote system, but 70% of people would hate the choice, whereas if Foreign were the choice, everyone would like it. So which is more wanted?
And just for the record, my complaint isn't about that foreign is winning this poll.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
So if multiple, equally-ranked votes is a fair system, why do we rank the movies when we submit our lists? Why not just have each person submit a list of their top 25 movies, and each movie is given only 1 point, regardless of its placement on the list? Wouldn't that give us a more "acceptable" top 100 list?
Last edited by Yoda; 02-21-21 at 01:41 AM.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
In reference to splitting the categories, the difference is that I haven't heard anyone say that they have no interest in the other genres if certain sub-genres are, or are not, included. People have asked whether or not neo-noir is considered part of noir, but nobody has said something like they want a noir countdown, but only if neo-noir isn't eligible, or they want a comedy countdown, but they have no interest if dark comedies are excluded.
When we did the horror countdown, we didn't make it only slashers, or only psychological horrors, etc. When we did the (unofficial) sci-fi countdown, we didn't exclude sci-fi horror movies, or sci-fi fantasy movies. So why should foreign movies be broken down into sub-categories if nothing else has been done that way? Based on the comments in these poll threads, the results of this question could change the results of the poll.
When we did the horror countdown, we didn't make it only slashers, or only psychological horrors, etc. When we did the (unofficial) sci-fi countdown, we didn't exclude sci-fi horror movies, or sci-fi fantasy movies. So why should foreign movies be broken down into sub-categories if nothing else has been done that way? Based on the comments in these poll threads, the results of this question could change the results of the poll.
I'm having trouble following this argument, because it began by insinuating Foreign had some kind of unfair advantage, even though most of what you're saying now seems to suggest it has a disadvantage this way, as I noted earlier.
However I still think it had the advantage in the poll by not being split, assuming that people on both sides of the split argument voted for it, hoping that their preference would be the eventual winner, (but that might be an incorrect assumption), as they could vote for foreign, while still voting for their other choice if their preference wasn't the eventual winner.
Yes, but change from what? The problem here, I think, is treating single-vote as the default, as if it's a neutral starting option. But it isn't. It's not a universal standard, it's just a method that's good for some things and not for others. Yes, choosing one voting method rather than another changes the results...in all directions. Single-voting could change what the result would have been from multiple-choice, which could change what the result would have been from ranked choice. But none of those has a claim to being the "real" result.
There may not be an actual "right" or "wrong" method to this poll, but based on past polls, the expectation here was to have a one vote per person poll, so it felt like being blind-sided by a method that just seemed to be "pushing the boundaries". (I'm sure there's a better phrase for this, but it's late, I'm tired, and I'm not thinking at full capacity right now.)
This reminds me of an old Yogi Berra quote: "You better cut the pizza in four slices because I'm not hungry enough to eat eight." The category of Foreign contains all Foreign Language films. We can talk all day about whether to drill down deeper into that or not, but we can't make that basic category bigger, which means it can't really garner any kind of artificial competitive advantage as a result of that talk. It seems clear on net it should be a disadvantage.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
We are. The question is how to determine "most."
Imagine 30% of people put Comedy first, but the other 70% have it last. And imagine 29% have Foreign first and the other 71% have it second. In this scenario, Comedy would "win" in a single-vote system, but 70% of people would hate the choice, whereas if Foreign were the choice, everyone would like it. So which is more wanted?
Imagine 30% of people put Comedy first, but the other 70% have it last. And imagine 29% have Foreign first and the other 71% have it second. In this scenario, Comedy would "win" in a single-vote system, but 70% of people would hate the choice, whereas if Foreign were the choice, everyone would like it. So which is more wanted?
I think we just have different goals.
Understood. And also for the record, I did not vote for Foreign.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
If thinking a voting system worked best in one context obligated us to think it must in every other, wouldn't you have been obligated to object before now? The ballots are weighted and contain multiple votes, which is very different from the single-vote method; if isolating everyone's top choice were the only fair way to do things, ballots would be just a single film! But I'm guessing nobody thinks that, so obviously we've all already accepted that the methods at different stages can (and should) be different.
A one-vote system for the countdown would only work if we were only looking for the one top film, not multiple films. For the countdown, we weren't looking for one clear winner. We were looking for the top 100 winners, so the ranked list works for that goal. But the whole point of these countdowns is to make the ranked list from other people's ranked lists. My point is that it wouldn't work if we were trying to find one top film, and everyone got multiple, equally-ranked votes. I don't know if it would work with multiple, equally-ranked votes even if we were looking for the top 100 films. The countdown results would definitely be different, but would it be better? Maybe, maybe not.
Plus, I've already said that if this had been a ranked poll with multiple votes, it would have been better than this method with multiple, equally-ranked votes.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
However I still think it had the advantage in the poll by not being split, assuming that people on both sides of the split argument voted for it, hoping that their preference would be the eventual winner, (but that might be an incorrect assumption), as they could vote for foreign, while still voting for their other choice if their preference wasn't the eventual winner.
Until this poll, single vote was the default for all of these polls here. I can't remember any other polls here (that were actual votes for something, rather than just opinion polls), where we had the option to vote for more than one choice.
There may not be an actual "right" or "wrong" method to this poll, but based on past polls, the expectation here was to have a one vote per person poll, so it felt like being blind-sided by a method that just seemed to be "pushing the boundaries". (I'm sure there's a better phrase for this, but it's late, I'm tired, and I'm not thinking at full capacity right now.)
There may not be an actual "right" or "wrong" method to this poll, but based on past polls, the expectation here was to have a one vote per person poll, so it felt like being blind-sided by a method that just seemed to be "pushing the boundaries". (I'm sure there's a better phrase for this, but it's late, I'm tired, and I'm not thinking at full capacity right now.)
My primary/immediate concern, though, is addressing the idea that there's anything unfair going on. That's the kind of "default" I mean. Default in terms of expectation, absolutely, just not in terms of legitimacy/fairness/accuracy.
This discussion feels more like an Abbott and Costello routine than a Berraism to me.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
Which is more wanted depends on your goal. If you're looking for an actual "winner", then the most first place votes would be the most wanted, but if you're looking to please the most people, then the most overall votes would be the most wanted.
I think we just have different goals.
I think we just have different goals.
You say that you'd use first-place votes if your goal was to find the "actual winner." But isn't that circular? Our criteria for picking the winner should be trying to find the winner! The question is what we're trying to measure. What does "most first-place votes" measure, and why is it better than anything else? And in the hypothetical I mentioned, do you think Comedy winning would have been a good outcome?
I didn't vote for foreign either, (or anything yet), but that won't matter unless nobody volunteers to host the foreign countdown.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
However I still think it had the advantage in the poll by not being split, assuming that people on both sides of the split argument voted for it, hoping that their preference would be the eventual winner, (but that might be an incorrect assumption), as they could vote for foreign, while still voting for their other choice if their preference wasn't the eventual winner.
Respectfully, yes, I believe that assumption is incorrect. You can subdivide any category (or not), and all categories already have divisions whether we talk about them or not, but you can't give the category more appeal than it "rightfully" has, since you cannot add to it by merely dividing it up.
Until this poll, single vote was the default for all of these polls here. I can't remember any other polls here (that were actual votes for something, rather than just opinion polls), where we had the option to vote for more than one choice.
There may not be an actual "right" or "wrong" method to this poll, but based on past polls, the expectation here was to have a one vote per person poll, so it felt like being blind-sided by a method that just seemed to be "pushing the boundaries". (I'm sure there's a better phrase for this, but it's late, I'm tired, and I'm not thinking at full capacity right now.)
There may not be an actual "right" or "wrong" method to this poll, but based on past polls, the expectation here was to have a one vote per person poll, so it felt like being blind-sided by a method that just seemed to be "pushing the boundaries". (I'm sure there's a better phrase for this, but it's late, I'm tired, and I'm not thinking at full capacity right now.)
This I'm sympathetic to. I admit that we've normally done single vote, and I can understand how it might feel strange (and maybe alarming, if we can find a word that means "alarming," but a little less than that word usually means). I'm pretty open to the idea that I should have discussed this more beforehand. You're all free to chastise me on that front.
My primary/immediate concern, though, is addressing the idea that there's anything unfair going on. That's the kind of "default" I mean. Default in terms of expectation, absolutely, just not in terms of legitimacy/fairness/accuracy.
My primary/immediate concern, though, is addressing the idea that there's anything unfair going on. That's the kind of "default" I mean. Default in terms of expectation, absolutely, just not in terms of legitimacy/fairness/accuracy.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
Yes, the methods are different because the goals are different.
A one-vote system for the countdown would only work if we were only looking for the one top film, not multiple films. For the countdown, we weren't looking for one clear winner. We were looking for the top 100 winners, so the ranked list works for that goal. But the whole point of these countdowns is to make the ranked list from other people's ranked lists. My point is that it wouldn't work if we were trying to find one top film, and everyone got multiple, equally-ranked votes. I don't know if it would work with multiple, equally-ranked votes even if we were looking for the top 100 films. The countdown results would definitely be different, but would it be better? Maybe, maybe not.
Plus, I've already said that if this had been a ranked poll with multiple votes, it would have been better than this method with multiple, equally-ranked votes.
A one-vote system for the countdown would only work if we were only looking for the one top film, not multiple films. For the countdown, we weren't looking for one clear winner. We were looking for the top 100 winners, so the ranked list works for that goal. But the whole point of these countdowns is to make the ranked list from other people's ranked lists. My point is that it wouldn't work if we were trying to find one top film, and everyone got multiple, equally-ranked votes. I don't know if it would work with multiple, equally-ranked votes even if we were looking for the top 100 films. The countdown results would definitely be different, but would it be better? Maybe, maybe not.
Plus, I've already said that if this had been a ranked poll with multiple votes, it would have been better than this method with multiple, equally-ranked votes.
Anyway, the point is not that there aren't differences (as you articulated quite well), it's that we all already agree that different situations call for different methods. You pointedly asked, if multiple votes were good, why not use them for ballots? But that same logic rebounds on the idea of using single voting, too. More, actually, since multiple votes is closer to how ballots work already.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
You might be right that it's an incorrect assumption, but if it isn't, then there is an advantage to not splitting the choices into "foreign general" and "foreign regional" because only one of those will be the eventual winner, but as simply "foreign", it's getting votes for both choices. None of the other genres has had any discussion about their countdowns being broken up into two or more sub-genres, so they're not getting any (potentially) undeserved votes.
1) You can't inflate a category by sub-dividing it. Comedy would not suddenly have an advantage if only we'd had a long discussion about whether to do Satires separately or not.
2) The prospect of sub-dividing a category is, as far as I can see, pretty clearly a disadvantage, since it has the potential to exclude large numbers of films. This isn't a hypothetical in this case, either, as a number of people expressed this very sentiment in the previous thread.
"Unfair" might not be the best term for it, but it does skew the results.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
Regardless, I'm calling it a night here. It's fine if not everyone likes this voting method, and I'm fine hearing the complaints. Hopefully my responses assuage them, but if not, I still need to reply in the interest of transparency.
Hopefully, also, people can also trust that I've put a lot of thought into this and consider giving me the benefit of the doubt on a few things. But if not, that's okay too.
Hopefully, also, people can also trust that I've put a lot of thought into this and consider giving me the benefit of the doubt on a few things. But if not, that's okay too.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
Regardless, I'm calling it a night here. It's fine if not everyone likes this voting method, and I'm fine hearing the complaints. Hopefully my responses assuage them, but if not, I still need to reply in the interest of transparency.
Hopefully, also, people can also trust that I've put a lot of thought into this and consider giving me the benefit of the doubt on a few things. But if not, that's okay too.
Hopefully, also, people can also trust that I've put a lot of thought into this and consider giving me the benefit of the doubt on a few things. But if not, that's okay too.
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
Which is more wanted depends on your goal. If you're looking for an actual "winner", then the most first place votes would be the most wanted, but if you're looking to please the most people, then the most overall votes would be the most wanted.
I think we just have different goals.
I think we just have different goals.
Hmm, maybe. But humor me just a bit longer, because I think we can shed a bit more light on this yet:
You say that you'd use first-place votes if your goal was to find the "actual winner." But isn't that circular? Our criteria for picking the winner should be trying to find the winner! The question is what we're trying to measure. What does "most first-place votes" measure, and why is it better than anything else?
You say that you'd use first-place votes if your goal was to find the "actual winner." But isn't that circular? Our criteria for picking the winner should be trying to find the winner! The question is what we're trying to measure. What does "most first-place votes" measure, and why is it better than anything else?
I'm not sure that one is "better" than the other. I'm just saying that the different methods will get different results.
And in the hypothetical I mentioned, do you think Comedy winning would have been a good outcome?
Imagine 30% of people put Comedy first, but the other 70% have it last. And imagine 29% have Foreign first and the other 71% have it second. In this scenario, Comedy would "win" in a single-vote system, but 70% of people would hate the choice, whereas if Foreign were the choice, everyone would like it. So which is more wanted?
X
Favorite Movies
X
User Lists
|