Atheistic Materialism Automatically Disqualifies Free Will

Tools    





To believe in no Higher Power of any sort necessitates that you also believe there is no such thing as Free Will, and that the choices you make each day were inevitably going to be made that way. As such, to be an Atheist you must logically concede that everything had to happen exactly the way it did, and that any choice anyone thinks they have is an illusion.

That is all.



My life isn't written very well.
Ah, but you can change your mind within your own destiny.

Love is a strange thing because in it's process, in order to know true love, you must always think back about decisions you made in the relationship with some regret. You then must decide what changes to make. This enables you to move on to the next one with a greater promise of success. Or strengthen the one you already have. Love is the higher power, and we all believe in it, even if we don't call it God.
__________________
I have been formatted to fit this screen.

r66-The member who always asks WHY?



Lets first take a look at a definition of free will.

Freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

The great thinkers throughout history have puzzled with the paradox of destiny versus free will. Calvinism versus Arminianism being the most famous.

Calvinism teaches (1) the total depravity of man, (2) God's unconditional election (or predestination) of certain ones to saved and certain others to be lost, (3) that Christ died only for the elect, not for every person, (4) that God's saving grace toward the elect cannot be resisted, and (5) that once a person is saved, he can never lose his salvation.
Arminianism teaches something different on each of these points: (1) Though born a sinner, mankind is given a spark of divine grace that enables him to respond positively to God. (2) God does not arbitrarily consign some people to eternal damnation; their willful rejection of God's salvation makes them responsible. (3) Christ died for every person, even though some refuse to accept the provision for their salvation. (4) No person is forced against his or her will to become a Christian (5) One's salvation can be lost through willful disobedience.

It was stated by Boethius (one such theologian), "There seems to be an hopeless conflict between divine foreknowledge of all things and freedom of human will. For if God sees everything in advance and cannot be deceived in any way, whatever his Providence foresees will happen, must happen. Therefore, if God foreknows eternally not only the acts of men, but also their plans and wishes, there cannot be freedom of will."

This theory states that free will does not exist within the belief of God. That it cannot exist, because God himself predestines our lives. Yet within the texts of the Bible are passages that state that we have a choice to choose God as our savior; hence the above ancient arguments, and an absolute paradox that can only be dispelled by personal faith. Fortunately for all humans, faith is not exclusive to only the believers. I have faith that someday I will die. Of course you could say that it is an obvious fact that I will, but Im not dead, so I have faith that ultimately that will be my fate. I have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow, of course we all know that it will, yet a catastrophic change could happen to alter that obvious outcome. To say that there is, without a doubt, freedom of will within or without God, would be like proving that our reality is just that, and not a dream. Although any proof of its reality could come from within the dream itself. It takes faith.

According to Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, "Scripture nowhere says that we are 'free' in the sense of being outside of God's control or of being able to make decisions that are not caused by anything. (This is the sense in which many people seem to assume we must be free.) Nor does it say we are 'free' in the sense of being able to do right on our own apart from God's power. But we are nonetheless free in the greatest sense that any creature of God could be free--we make willing choices, choices that have real effects. We are aware of no restraints on our will from God when we make decisions. We must insist that we have the power of willing choice; otherwise we will fall into the error of fatalism or determinism and thus conclude that our choices do not matter, or that we cannot really make willing choices. On the other hand, the kind of freedom that is demanded by those who deny God's providential control of all things, a freedom to be outside of God's sustaining and controlling activity, would be impossible if Jesus Christ is indeed 'continually carrying along things by his word of power.' If this is true, then to be outside of that providential control would simply be not to exist! An absolute "freedom," totally free of God's control, is simply not possible in a world providentially sustained and directed by God himself."

The verses supporting predestination are very explicit: they all say that no man can choose God unless God enables them to; or they say that God has chosen certain people to respond to His call:
Man in his fallen, sinful state, cannot receive God's spirit, nor can he understand God's truth, unless God elects him. (1 Cor 2:14) Those who are chosen by God will surely come to him (John 6:37).
On the other hand there are obvious scriptures stating that only our choices will have an effect on our after death outcome. That we choose to give our will and our lives over to the graces of God, letting His will be done. But then we would lose our free will at the point of being saved.

This is an argument as old as the scriptures, only personal interpretations and faith can give anyone an answer that will make them feel moderately assured of salvation. As far as the unbelievers are concerned, it is not a valid argument in their lives. Because without the belief in God, there is no argument whether there is predestination or free will, there is nothing or no one to manipulate our lives, therefore there is nothing left but our own free will.

This is really a topic with no definitive and clear answer. Each of our interpretations of what free will can and probably will be different from one anothers. I doubt that within this forum, we will beat out all the ancient thinkers from so many diverse cultures, and come to a conclusion that is either right or wrong.
__________________
"Today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."



I find it hard to believe that someone would so openly make a comment like the one Chris made, knowing full well that redunant argument will spring up between two equally pig headed groups.

That being said, Slay, I have to tell you, that what you just wrote was excellent. We're not going to work it out. It will be redundant argument [as I mentioned]. But thanks for pointing out the theory that there is no free will within belief of God. I had never thought of it in that way [that being said I really never thought about there being no free will without a belief in God] before, and it was definitely an interesting thought to entertain.



Oh, God ["Oh, Nothing" - this message has closed captioning for the holy impaired], another deity vs. atheism thread. Oh, my lord ["Oh, myself"].



Thank you Silver, I appreciate that. I must point out that I have no answer, and that my post was, "just an argument". I used it to only stress that no human being in ages past, times of the present, or into the fathomless future, will ever be able to have an absolute garauntee of knowing the truth. At least I have faith that that will be the case.



I especially liked the part that stressed that no discussion on a forum about movies is going to really bring us any closer to any truths. I quite enjoyed that part.

And I would just like to say to Chris, as much as I love you Chingo, that just hurling comments like this one out into the void is the biggest turn off in regards to believing in God, those who believe in God, and dare I even say it, yourself. It reads smugly, arrogantly and is just ack [oh, yes, dammit: ack!].

I know you'll take this the right way, because you do indeed know that I think you're wonderful. Just...just ack, man.



Originally posted by The Silver Bullet
hurling comments like this one out into the void is the biggest turn off in regards to believing in God, those who believe in God, and dare I even say it, yourself.
Actually, you're wrong. There happens to be a nun registered here, and she just PMed me. This is what she said:

Chris turns me on with his anti-atheism remarks. He makes me strip off my habit. Hail Mary!





Why is it that any member who may or may not be horny for other members always makes a point of sending you a personal message about it?!



Blame whoever wrote "For a good time, PM Sexy Celebrity" on the MoFo bathroom stalls.



I think God told whomever did that, to do it. I doubt it was really any kind of free will.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Atheist or a theist, that is the question....

I just think religion mostly sucks, and I say that totally out of free will. So, that must mean I am not an atheist - which I have never believed I was anyway.
__________________
The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

--------

They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but
now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.



Originally posted by Yoda
To believe in no Higher Power of any sort necessitates that you also believe there is no such thing as Free Will, and that the choices you make each day were inevitably going to be made that way. As such, to be an Atheist you must logically concede that everything had to happen exactly the way it did, and that any choice anyone thinks they have is an illusion.

That is all.
You make two conclusions to start this message, and you don't explain how you came to them. Why do you say that atheists believe there is no such thing as free will and that their choices were inevitable? Did you read another book from some wacked out apologetic?
__________________
One of the biggest myths told is that being intelligent is the absence of the ability to do stupid things.



And before you call him smug, Chris, he did end his message with the same smilie as yourself. I got the same vibe as I did from you. So I advise that you don't take that course, not that you would, of course. Both posts [and this one, too!] are all to be read in the same part arrogant/part sarcastic tone of voice.

Oh. And to think that I nearly forgot:




Slaytan: as far as our minds can perceive, yes, God's utter omniscience and our own Free Will logically conflict. There are a few possibilities:

1 - He willingly gave up utter omniscience by creating begins with Free Will. I've always felt sentience and a Will of our own was what was meant by the idea of being created "in His image." Naturally, known all things present and past, He's still one heck of a prognosticator.

2 - We don't have Free Will.

3 - They do NOT conflict, but our minds cannot yet grasp why. Which is a possibility, you must admit. If God exists, it stands to reason that there are some things about Him we wouldn't be able to understand just now.


Originally posted by firegod
You make two conclusions to start this message, and you don't explain how you came to them. Why do you say that atheists believe there is no such thing as free will and that their choices were inevitable? Did you read another book from some wacked out apologetic?
No. No book. No apologetic (wacked out or otherwise).

Think about it: if a leaf falls from a tree, the cells it is made up of are going to react to the weather conditions around it. The wind and temperature will "hit" the cells and the cells will react accordingly, so to speak. The leaf has no choice in reacting the way it does; it is totally a victim of circumstance. It lands wherever cause-and-effect say it MUST land. Every cell reacts a certain way to certain conditions. It doesn't choose to react to it. It must. It's simply following a number of Universal Laws.

So, I ask you: why are the cells and chemicals that make up human beings exempt from this? Is it just because we happen to have a LOT of them? When you break us down, aren't we made of the same bits and pieces as everything else? What key ingredient sparks us with choice? What part of our body is isolated from cause-and-effect so as to allow us to have a Will of our own?


Originally posted by The Silver Bullet
And I would just like to say to Chris, as much as I love you Chingo, that just hurling comments like this one out into the void is the biggest turn off in regards to believing in God, those who believe in God, and dare I even say it, yourself. It reads smugly, arrogantly and is just ack [oh, yes, dammit: ack!].
If a simple, relatively polite, straightforward claim about a logical inevitability in regards to Atheism is a "turn off" to you, then I'm not sure quite what to say. Any smugness or arrogance you picked up on was injected, and not inherent.

I can tell you, however, that always, always, always dropping into such a discussion to remind us all of how much time we're wasting is a much bigger "turn off." We're all well aware, I'm sure, of the likelihood of convincing another party...but that's not why we discuss it. Maybe you're trying to serve as some mediator or voice of reason, but I don't think it's necessary.



Any smugness or arrogance you picked up on was injected, and not inherent.
Yeah, don't worry, I know.

I can tell you, however, that always, always, always dropping into such a discussion to remind us all of how much time we're wasting is a much bigger "turn off."
To you.

...but I don't think it's necessary.
I do.

And I don't think I'm being a voice of reason. Just a voice. Consider me a drink of scotch for those who need it. Without me everyone may just die of boredom....