Game of Thrones: Season 4

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We've gone on holiday by mistake
Agree with the above ^^^^^.


More torture in that the Starks come close to being reunited again and don't. This is like the 3rd time, Arya being close when Lady Stark and Rob were killed, Jon and Brandon being literally meters from each other for the 2nd time. Way to go to torture the viewer.


I said it would be nice if some of the main characters actually "met" this season rather than be off on their own stories. Nevermind.


Great episode though.
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Agree with the above ^^^^^.


More torture in that the Starks come close to being reunited again and don't. This is like the 3rd time, Arya being close when Lady Stark and Rob were killed, Jon and Brandon being literally meters from each other for the 2nd time. Way to go to torture the viewer.


I said it would be nice if some of the main characters actually "met" this season rather than be off on their own stories. Nevermind.


Great episode though.
It was contrived. Bran would have said something to Jon, and they all would have needed supplies and rest before heading northward anyway. Hodor was tortured, and they all were held captive and chained which in itself is exhausting. Sure Jon would want to have taken them back to Castle Black, but would he have made them? Especially if he heard bout Brans psychic quest. Jon is aware that there are things beyond his comprehension at play.

Of course what I gather from the bookreaders is that none of this happened anyway. So uh,...yeah.



Yeah, I didn't really buy Bran foregoing any contact with Jon. If he was going to do that, he should've at least said something about how Jon would've definitely stopped him from going. It seems like a perfectly good detour to keep things moving at a brisk pace, but I think they had to contort themselves a little to stop that meeting, just to avoid any ripple problems.

Couple other subtle changes with Cersei, too, I think. And not events--I don't get riled up about events changing. I get riled up (or concerned) when they change people's attitudes towards other characters or events.



A system of cells interlinked
Yeah, I didn't really buy Bran foregoing any contact with Jon. If he was going to do that, he should've at least said something about how Jon would've definitely stopped him from going.
One of the twins said as much to Bran, which is what convinced him not to make contact.
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” ― Thomas Sowell



In the Beginning...
I thought it was a little weak, too, but the alternative—having Bran and Jon meet up—would have been far more difficult to navigate. At least they're back on track, with Bran and company heading north again, and Jon heading back to the Wall with Ghost.

I feel like the deviation was worth it. It was right in line with the spirit of Martin's storytelling and infused a bit of much-needed drama into the mid-season lull. I am, however, a bit surprised that they killed off Locke already. It seemed they would have given him a "stab" at betraying Jon (pun intended), or...

WARNING: "DO NOT READ IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED ADWD" spoilers below
...used him as a replacement for Bowen Marsh during Jon's Julius Caesar moment a bit later down the line...


...but I guess his mission was always to bring Bran and/or Rickon back to the Dreadfort. Oh well. So passes "not" Vargo Hoat.



We've gone on holiday by mistake
Could someone who knows the books just tell me one thing;


Did Arya's "dancing master" (or sword master) from series 1 actually die when he fought the guards with his wooden sword? because you never actually see it.



Here I was giving Cersei some props for having a nice interlude with Oberyn about her daughter in Dorne, and then I read that she was probably just playing him as he's going to be one of the judges/witnesses for the prosecution at Tyrion's trial. She's sucked up to him, Tywin, and one other person I can't recall. So, that "niceness" of hers to Oberyn goes right out the window and she's still playing the game.
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The Adventure Starts Here!
Yeah, I caught that with a second viewing. She started with Tywin, trying to influence his vote, and then moved on to Oberyn, using their main point of contact to perhaps sway him -- parenthood, and, in particular, her own losses as a mother. Not only did someone kill her son (with Oberyn as judge over that trial), but he has her daughter back in Dorne. She was definitely trying to play on whatever guilt she thought he might feel about her only really having one of her children left with her.



WARNING: "Possible spoilers about future books" spoilers below
Another contrived Bran/Jon element is the fact Karl never thought to mention it or goad Jon with it at all. I liked the detour to keep things active but would be equally happy with some Reed history lesson.... Smiling Knight / Tower of Joy particularly and start to allude to R+L=J. Also, what was Locke going to do with Bran, before the NW found the Reeds, Hodor and they spilled the beans...?

Glad they're starting to show Dany's arrogance/naivety and outright saying early she won't be travelling to Westeros any time soon!

A lot of non-readers also seemed to think Syrio was alive after that... maybe the Jaqen = Syrio theory has some credence??
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In the Beginning...
Originally Posted by Austruck
The other judge is Margaery's father, I believe.
Oui. And I'm a bit disappointing in the lack of Mace Tyrell or his high blood pressure. The guy is a blowhard in the books, but in the show he's been relatively quiet and unassuming.

Another contrived Bran/Jon element is the fact Karl never thought to mention it or goad Jon with it at all.
Didn't even think about that, but you're right. Though I guess you could chalk it up to the heat of the moment, Karl perhaps didn't even remember, "Oh hey, I have your brother tied up in my tent over there."

I liked the detour to keep things active but would be equally happy with some Reed history lesson.... Smiling Knight / Tower of Joy particularly and start to allude to R+L=J
You're tacking into spoiler waters, son.

Also, what was Locke going to do with Bran, before the NW found the Reeds, Hodor and they spilled the beans...?
Take him back to Castle Black and then steal off for the Dreadfort at first opportunity? They're starting to make it clear, as Martin did in the books, that if you've got a child of Ned Stark in hand, you control the right to Winterfell. Although Roose Bolton never learns in the books that Bran and Rickon are alive, he might as well be one of the many who go bobbing for Starks.

Glad they're starting to show Dany's arrogance/naivety and outright saying early she won't be travelling to Westeros any time soon
I was wondering how much of a killjoy that was for show-watchers, especially since the preview for last episode had the bit where she asks how many ships are needed to take King's Landing. Sorry, folks. She's settling in.

A lot of non-readers also seemed to think Syrio was alive after that... maybe the Jaqen = Syrio theory has some credence??
I think it's 50-50 that he's alive. Theorizing that he's Jaqen H'gar, however, is just grasping at straws. If he was Syrio, it feels like he would have tipped Arya off to the fact that he already knew her. And I got the impression that Jaqen had been in the dungeons of King's Landing for a fair length of time before Yoren arrived and plucked him for the Night's Watch, which means he couldn't have been Syrio. A lot of the fan theories are just people trying to make connections that aren't there.



You're tacking into spoiler waters, son.
I'd be amazed if that meant anything to any show watcher, I doubt majority even remember the previous, brief mentions of the first two. But as general etiquette, are we classing theories as spoilers then - i'd have tagged if it was fact but it still conjecture at this point.

Originally Posted by Sleezy
Take him back to Castle Black and then steal off for the Dreadfort at first opportunity? They're starting to make it clear, as Martin did in the books, that if you've got a child of Ned Stark in hand, you control the right to Winterfell. Although Roose Bolton never learns in the books that Bran and Rickon are alive, he might as well be one of the many who go bobbing for Starks.
Casual walk then. Do they? I thought that was why they kept trying to marry them off.... Roose doesn't have any daughters that would make Bran useful, thought plan was just to off competition to control of North. Wonder why Martin opted to Ramsay to never that to Roose though? Fear of failure?

Originally Posted by Sleezy
I was wondering how much of a killjoy that was for show-watchers, especially since the preview for last episode had the bit where she asks how many ships are needed to take King's Landing. Sorry, folks. She's settling in.
Best to get it over with, since the trailers showed dragons flying over Kings Landing. Glad they mentioned the fall of Yunkai etc and start showing her flaws, worried they might simplify.

Originally Posted by Sleezy
I think it's 50-50 that he's alive. Theorizing that he's Jaqen H'gar, however, is just grasping at straws. If he was Syrio, it feels like he would have tipped Arya off to the fact that he already knew her. And I got the impression that Jaqen had been in the dungeons of King's Landing for a fair length of time before Yoren arrived and plucked him for the Night's Watch, which means he couldn't have been Syrio. A lot of the fan theories are just people trying to make connections that aren't there.
I don't buy it and considering the nature of PoV writing, I don't think he's alive. Show left it a lot more ambiguous but they could only work from source suppose? Especially doesn't fit with Pate and I don't see what point him being alive would serve, yet, as want to see how Arya's journey pans out as it's going.



In the Beginning...
I'd be amazed if that meant anything to any show watcher, I doubt majority even remember the previous, brief mentions of the first two. But as general etiquette, are we classing theories as spoilers then - i'd have tagged if it was fact but it still conjecture at this point.
Yeah, although it's still technically a theory, I'm assuming it's fact because all the right indications are there. Since this thread is about the show, however, I was concerned that somebody who hasn't read the books might figure out what you were getting at. The show has barely even raised the question, much less explored possibilities.

Casual walk then. Do they? I thought that was why they kept trying to marry them off.... Roose doesn't have any daughters that would make Bran useful, thought plan was just to off competition to control of North. Wonder why Martin opted to Ramsay to never that to Roose though? Fear of failure?
Well, only Sansa is widely known to be alive, and being a young woman, that makes her fodder for marrying. The Lannisters put a cap on her right quick by hitching her to Tyrion, but Littlefinger also understands her value. It's no accident that she's with him.

A bit later...

WARNING: "Stark Kids" spoilers below
...Roose Bolton gets his hands on Jeyne Poole (Sansa's old friend), via Littlefinger, and forces her to impersonate Arya Stark so she can marry Ramsay and grant him rights to Winterfell. And Wyman Manderly sends Davos Seaworth to the Isle of Skagos to retrieve Rickon, who was witnessed escaping Winterfell during Ramsay's attack. Presumably Wyman means to leverage Rickon to reinstate a real Stark in Winterfell, since Rickon is a son of Eddard Stark and therefore has claim over the daughters.

In the books, no one knows that Bran is still alive, save Samwell Tarley, who is sworn to secrecy. And then there's Jon Snow, who is offered to be legitimized as "Jon Stark" by Stannis Baratheon and given Winterfell. Stannis understands that having a Stark in Winterfell as an ally would legitimize his own claim to the Iron Throne, and would likely win him support from various northern and riverland houses (Reed, Glover, Manderly, Mormont, and perhaps even Karstark, although Umber and Mallister are currently stymied by House Frey, and House Bolton is itself in contention for Winterfell).


Best to get it over with, since the trailers showed dragons flying over Kings Landing. Glad they mentioned the fall of Yunkai etc and start showing her flaws, worried they might simplify.
Yeah, that was terribly misleading, the dragons over King's Landing thing. I know they wanted to drum up excitement, but it's a blatant falsehood and a bit of a red herring. Oh well. :/

I don't buy it and considering the nature of PoV writing, I don't think he's alive. Show left it a lot more ambiguous but they could only work from source suppose? Especially doesn't fit with Pate and I don't see what point him being alive would serve, yet, as want to see how Arya's journey pans out as it's going.
Syrio Forel is a very, very minor character. I think he's fairly popular due to his persona and the great performance the actor gave in the series, but in the grand scheme he has served his purpose. The fact that his death was not witnessed by Arya is intriguing, but then again it's more realistic that way. These characters can't show us everything.

Really, whether he's alive or dead is entirely dependent on how Martin feels about the character. By leaving the door open, he has given himself an opportunity in case he feels like bringing Syrio back later. But I think it's just as likely that Martin has moved on from him.

Jaqen H'gar, we should remember, is also a very minor character. He's a bit more intriguing because there has been at least one clear indication of him resurfacing as another character, but even that whole thing with Pate could go anywhere or nowhere.

As a writer myself, I get the feeling that Martin just sprinkles little seeds of possibility for himself. It's very smart, actually. Jaqen and Syrio, like a lot of periphery characters in the books, could become pivotal, or they could never appear in any major capacity again. Why? Because Martin has kept them in play. I don't believe this means everything is connected and all plot points will converge at the end game, even though some threads are obviously entwined. I just think it's a mark of a writer who didn't know, and perhaps still doesn't know, exactly which direction he wants to go.



The Laws of Gods and Men

This was an excellent episode, touching on various points throughout the Seven Kingdoms. But once the trial of Tyrion began, nothing else seemed to matter, particularly when Peter Dinklage seethed in silence, then consumed the screen with his rage. Wow. Just, wow.