A scary thing happened on the way to the Movie Forums - Horrorcrammers

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Victim of The Night
Why, if you don't mind me asking?
Well, I wish I had my write-up from just last year that went down with the Corri because I was pretty specific and spent a good bit of time discussing it... but now I don't remember much other than the two big things for me.
Which probably won't hold water for you.
The first is that I felt that it wasn't nearly Raimi enough. For my hope and expectation of Raimi going back to Horror, I was really expecting something much more unique, something that really, really stood out. I specifically remember talking it up to my wife how great it was going to be and when it was over she was like, "I don't get it" and I was just bummed out.
But the thing that is really personal to me is that I just hated the story.
It's the story of a totally innocent person running afoul of a mean, hateful old witch and ultimately
WARNING: "the whole plot" spoilers below
being damned to Hell for it no matter what she tried to do to escape it. She was a good person and she didn't deserve any of what happened to her in any way shape or form and I got tired of seeing her suffer and I when she finally got dragged to Hell at the end
...I was left just frankly hating the movie. And when I re-watched it at home, I hated it again. And then when I re-watched it last year, I turned it off cause I decided I just didn't want to see her dragged to Hell again.
So I basically hated it because I hated the story. In a world where good people get ground under the wheels of bad ones all freaking day long every day, I just didn't need a movie like that.
I get that that doesn't hold water with a lot of people but I said I kinda hate it, not that it's bad.
Although, again, I was seriously underwhelmed.



I really liked Drag Me to Hell. I thought the sticking point some have over how cruel and punishing her fate is, contrasted with how undeserving we believe her to be (even though Rock has already pointed out, she is hardly a total innocent), is exactly what makes it work. That it is here where the horror of it lies. I want horror films to make me uncomfortable and I frequently feel they are pulling their punches when they don't let me suffer somewhat (even though, yes, sometimes it is much too easy for them to be purely nihilistic...so it can be a fine line).



But it's also a complicated line in the sand for any of us in the horror community to be drawing because, honestly, what's actually worse? An audience watching (and being able to empathize) with the horrible predicament of this girl. Or, in the case of something like F13, passively accepting how innocent victims are offered up as cannon fodder for Jason's body count? The latter always seems to me to have a much more insidious affect on those watching. It makes the reality of the violence invisible. Or worse, it has us cheering it on.


I don't actually think either answer is right or wrong. I just think its interesting to think about how we rationalize and/or accept the violence that happens to the fictional characters we watch.



Victim of The Night
I really liked Drag Me to Hell. I thought the sticking point some have over how cruel and punishing her fate is, contrasted with how undeserving we believe her to be (even though Rock has already pointed out, she is hardly a total innocent), is exactly what makes it work. That it is here where the horror of it lies. I want horror films to make me uncomfortable and I frequently feel they are pulling their punches when they don't let me suffer somewhat (even though, yes, sometimes it is much too easy for them to be purely nihilistic...so it can be a fine line).



But it's also a complicated line in the sand for any of us in the horror community to be drawing because, honestly, what's actually worse? An audience watching (and being able to empathize) with the horrible predicament of this girl. Or, in the case of something like F13, passively accepting how innocent victims are offered up as cannon fodder for Jason's body count? The latter always seems to me to have a much more insidious affect on those watching. It makes the reality of the violence invisible. Or worse, it has us cheering it on.


I don't actually think either answer is right or wrong. I just think its interesting to think about how we rationalize and/or accept the violence that happens to the fictional characters we watch.
Well, I'm going to give you another interesting point here because, while I really hated the way this film treated her in the context of what I felt this film was I conversely had no issue with how Rob Zombie treated Denise. It not only fit, in that movie, for me, but it elevated the dense, hopeless horror of that movie. But the way Raimi did it in his film just made me feel sad. Sad. I don't go to Horror movies to just feel sad.
Probably in no small part because I don't agree with Rock's assessment of the heroine's actions. She did everything she could short of sacrificing her own future for a complete stranger and really did risk her prospects by helping as much as she tried to, then she is equally victimized from the other direction by her boss and Stu. The fact that she is a woman in the workplace being passed over for a less-tenured man (again) only furthers the notion that she, not the old lady, who obviously from the funeral had a very large support network as well and had no fair reason to curse this poor stranger to literal Hell, makes the heroine's plight clearly the moral high-ground in this tale. She is literally every ounce as innocent as the plot will allow her to be. I tend to hate movies where people get **** on and it just never gets any better for them and that's what happens to her. In her workplace, with her fiancee's awful family, and then finally with this awful woman who does something so disproportionately horrible to her it's incomprehensible. The idea that she deserves it in any way holds no water with me at all.
And that's what makes me hate it. Yes, bad things do happen to good people all the time, and, honestly, that's something that just really eats at me in real life. And this movie really, really rubs that in.



Well, I wish I had my write-up from just last year that went down with the Corri because I was pretty specific and spent a good bit of time discussing it... but now I don't remember much other than the two big things for me.
Which probably won't hold water for you.
The first is that I felt that it wasn't nearly Raimi enough. For my hope and expectation of Raimi going back to Horror, I was really expecting something much more unique, something that really, really stood out. I specifically remember talking it up to my wife how great it was going to be and when it was over she was like, "I don't get it" and I was just bummed out.
But the thing that is really personal to me is that I just hated the story.
It's the story of a totally innocent person running afoul of a mean, hateful old witch and ultimately
WARNING: "the whole plot" spoilers below
being damned to Hell for it no matter what she tried to do to escape it. She was a good person and she didn't deserve any of what happened to her in any way shape or form and I got tired of seeing her suffer and I when she finally got dragged to Hell at the end
...I was left just frankly hating the movie. And when I re-watched it at home, I hated it again. And then when I re-watched it last year, I turned it off cause I decided I just didn't want to see her dragged to Hell again.
So I basically hated it because I hated the story. In a world where good people get ground under the wheels of bad ones all freaking day long every day, I just didn't need a movie like that.
I get that that doesn't hold water with a lot of people but I said I kinda hate it, not that it's bad.
Although, again, I was seriously underwhelmed.

Well, I'm going to give you another interesting point here because, while I really hated the way this film treated her in the context of what I felt this film was I conversely had no issue with how Rob Zombie treated Denise. It not only fit, in that movie, for me, but it elevated the dense, hopeless horror of that movie. But the way Raimi did it in his film just made me feel sad. Sad. I don't go to Horror movies to just feel sad.
Probably in no small part because I don't agree with Rock's assessment of the heroine's actions. She did everything she could short of sacrificing her own future for a complete stranger and really did risk her prospects by helping as much as she tried to, then she is equally victimized from the other direction by her boss and Stu. The fact that she is a woman in the workplace being passed over for a less-tenured man (again) only furthers the notion that she, not the old lady, who obviously from the funeral had a very large support network as well and had no fair reason to curse this poor stranger to literal Hell, makes the heroine's plight clearly the moral high-ground in this tale. She is literally every ounce as innocent as the plot will allow her to be. I tend to hate movies where people get **** on and it just never gets any better for them and that's what happens to her. In her workplace, with her fiancee's awful family, and then finally with this awful woman who does something so disproportionately horrible to her it's incomprehensible. The idea that she deserves it in any way holds no water with me at all.
And that's what makes me hate it. Yes, bad things do happen to good people all the time, and, honestly, that's something that just really eats at me in real life. And this movie really, really rubs that in.
These are fair points. I don't think we're gonna bridge the gap as we have pretty different reads of the movie, but if I may offer some additional words:

1. I don't think the movie presents her as "totally" innocent, given that she explicitly makes the decision not to extend the mortgage. It's a decision heavily loaded in one direction for the reasons you bring up, but it's still a decision. (If the movie wanted her to be a total innocent, it would have had the boss tell her the mortgage wasn't getting extended period.) Would it be the decision one of us could see ourselves making in real life? Very likely, but I think that's intentional.

2. Now, one can take issue with the movie being excessively punitive (especially given her attempts to atone), but I didn't have an issue personally because Raimi has a habit of putting his protagonists through the ringer (in the Evil Dead movies). What the heroine here goes through I found to be a variation of that, just one more tailored to what modern audiences can relate to.

3. But yeah, I totally get not wanting to see a character being tortured excessively, and it's probably worse when the person is nice and trying to make things right. (Although I suppose a movie where they're not nice and not trying to right the situation could be pretty boring....or it could be Uncut Gems, haha.) I'm not always in the mood for it myself (I am not a fan at all of Martyrs or a certain silent film that shall not be named lest I emit a loud grumble). But other times I'm a sadistic bastard, so who's to say?



*a faint grumble can be heard coming from a distance*
*grumbles in close-up with a single tear running down my cheek*



NEON DEMON and STARRY EYES make for a great "Nightmare LA" themed double feature. Well, I tried to double feature them but life got in the way so I watched them a couple nights apart.

That said, both had strong initial viewings in my eyes but there's something highly gratifying about the rewatch, seeing the pieces click into place knowing where they're heading. Inverted outcomes but curiously similar in their ideas of LA as a land of predators and abusers, with the dreamers caught squarely in the cross hairs.

Might pop on MULHOLLAND DR to bring it all home.



Sea Fever. A science student joins a fishing trawler for her studies when they happen upon a mysterious sea creature. This wasn’t too bad. It’s not great at building tension or dread or raising the stakes but I liked the problem solving aspect of it and there’s some neat horror.



I've spent most of my Horrorcram this year mostly curating favorites for friends. Which is fine. I don't mind being the bad influence. Some of the viewings have been Berberian Sound Studio, Pontypool, Strange Color of Your Body's Tears and Let The Corpses Tan, The Fog, Dead and Buried, Messiah of Evil, Belladonna of Sadness, The Devils, Kill List, Valerie/Week of Wonders, Lemora, Lizard in Woman's Skin, Fascination, Requiem for a Vampire, Eyes of Fire, Dark Waters and some not-quite horror stuff like Holy Motors and Burning. Hasn't been a bad run, but I haven't had much of a chance to indulge myself with newer viewings.





I've mostly marginalized Donald Cammell as something of a flake, which might not be entirely fair, but in a way he's kinda asking for it. His main accomplishment is the cult classic Performance which is very easy to regard more as a Nicolas Roeg film, because it's full of Roegian touches like his signature camerawork and editing, but also because it fits more snuggly among Roeg's much more impressive body of work than Cammell's, whose subsequent films have been few and far inbetween, and which, while always interesting, never quite have the same level of artistic fascination, thematic complexity and depth of Roeg's pictures.



Outside of Performance, Cammell is best known for Demon Seed, a film most people remember as the one where Julie Christie is raped by a robot. That's selling it short, obviously, especially given its prescience for what would be later known as the "internet of things" that we take for granted today. Cammell is a skilled filmmaker, after all, and his evocative management and cinematic choices are always a joy for sophisticated viewers, although less so for average viewers who may be less aware of subtle techniques of manipulation and casual aesthetics. Cammell is also extremely trashy in a way. Besides robot rape, his films, as subjects and stories, are very rarely more than pulpy garbage, films that under a director with less gratuitous imagination would churn them out like the typical made-for-late-night-cable films of Shannon Tweed and Andrew Stevens. White of the Eye, essentially, falls into this category of erotic schlock, a dull and fairly obvious priapic serial killer tale. But let's not bother with the narrative details. What sets this apart is clearly Cammell's ingenuity, sense of humor and incorrigible tendency to be distasteful in technically impeccable fashion. Not quite De Palma, mind you, but closer than it has any right to be, and in some choice ways even more over-the-top than De Palma at his most hysterical. Helping out enormously is a very game performance from David Keith, a decent country-boy actor who would also become a staple of the late night cable circuit with predictable titles like Raw Justice, Deadly Sins, Invasion of Privacy, etc. Here, he just seems to be having a great time, and we end up rooting for him to have the best time he can manage in a film he already knows that no one will see.


7.5/10



House (1986) -


Roger Cobb (William Katt), a divorced author with writer's block whose young son is missing - talk about bad luck, huh - moves into the house he grew up in, which happens to be haunted. It's a fun and humorous little horror movie that I also found to be oddly inspiring. This is because each monster is a personal demon from a personal failure to something that gave Roger PTSD, so the inspiration comes from the notion that they can be fought. I enjoyed Katt's performance for coming across as bewildered about his situation as I was, George Wendt is a welcome sight as his friendly neighbor and drinking buddy, as is Richard Moll in a role I don't want to say too much about it for fear of spoiling it. I'll just say that his role is flashback-only. I also like the monster designs, which like the movie ride a fine line between scary and funny, as well as how the surreal look and feel of the house succeeded at messing with my head. It's not the best haunted house horror movie I've ever seen, although it's definitely not the worst, and while there is genuine comedy in the scenes where Roger tries to hide the monsters and his attempts at fighting them from neighbors and the police, much of the comedy seemed forced and/or focus grouped. I'm still very glad I watched it and recommend it heartily to anyone who's fighting any personal battles (well, who isn't these days)?



The trick is not minding
I've spent most of my Horrorcram this year mostly curating favorites for friends. Which is fine. I don't mind being the bad influence. Some of the viewings have been Berberian Sound Studio, Pontypool, Strange Color of Your Body's Tears and Let The Corpses Tan, The Fog, Dead and Buried, Messiah of Evil, Belladonna of Sadness, The Devils, Kill List, Valerie/Week of Wonders, Lemora, Lizard in Woman's Skin, Fascination, Requiem for a Vampire, Eyes of Fire, Dark Waters and some not-quite horror stuff like Holy Motors and Burning. Hasn't been a bad run, but I haven't had much of a chance to indulge myself with newer viewings
That’s an interesting mix of films you watched there.
Seen a few of those, and a few of them are on the watch list, but the only One I don’t recognize is Pontypool.
I assume that Dark Waters is the Japanese version and not the American remake?



One I don’t recognize is Pontypool.
It's a low budget Canadian film, mostly real-time single set (a small talk radio station) as they have to deal with some very strange occurances on-air. Very tense and intriguing premise, and effectively economic filmmaking.



I assume that Dark Waters is the Japanese version and not the American remake?
Actually the 1994 Spanish film, which was a part of the recently released folk-horror box set. (I grabbed a nice-looking version off of youtube a couple of months ago, an upgrade to the not-so-nice-looking youtube version I grabbed several years ago.)





The trick is not minding
It's a low budget Canadian film, mostly real-time single set (a small talk radio station) as they have to deal with some very strange occurances on-air. Very tense and intriguing premise, and effectively economic filmmaking.




Actually the 1994 Spanish film, which was a part of the recently released folk-horror box set. (I grabbed a nice-looking version off of youtube a couple of months ago, an upgrade to the not-so-nice-looking youtube version I grabbed several years ago.)


Ooohhh. Just realized that it’s Dark Waters and not Dark Water, without the “s”.
Haven’t heard of that film either, then.



Honestly, I didn't care for Drag Me to Hell. It felt a bit overhyped for the final product which turned out to be more meh than I was wanting.

I mean I'm cool with the "Sometimes nice people suffer" angle. I mean, I did like 13 Sins and its lead character went through the wringer as well.

WARNING: "Spoilers!" spoilers below
The whole thing involving the envelopes, on the other hand, was a crock and felt like a facepalm worthy climax. And the whole thing with the seance feels like it came out of a different film altogether.


Monster House was decent. Some good jokes and some heart as we learn about the backstory of some of the characters. Agree that the animation is the weak link. But if you're wanting a better animated Halloween tale, Paranorman is right there on Netflix next to it. Coraline can also be rented for a couple bucks and works just as well.



*loudly clears throat*


Dracula Has Risen From the Grave (Sexually)



Dracula Sucks is, as it sounds, a pornographic Dracula. It's not, in the vein of The Mad Love Life of a Hot Vampire, a porno with Dracula with a bunch of **** happening. I would also hesitate to call it a parody, even in that lazy modern porn sense (hey, do you want to see [pop culture character] ****? well now you can! I mean, people aren't exactly lining up to see Renfield ****), although there certainly is some humour. It's an actual adaptation, which is where much of its novelty comes from, for better or worse. It most recognizably borrows the template from the Tod Browning version and updates the setting to somewhere around the '30s, judging by the costumes. Why? My guess is that the filmmakers had access to costumes from that period and not from the Victorian era that the story is originally set in. But this does give it a welcome level of production values. The movie also benefits tremendously from being set in a real castle, even if it's one in middle of the California desert.

Now, part of the fun of of seeing a story that's been adapted this many times is to see what the cast brings to the table. As this is a '70s porn production and features, even by the standards of the genre, a pretty stacked cast. (Not a pun...although in the case of Kay Parker, I guess it is.) Now, some of the cast, like Annette Haven as Mina Harker, carry themselves with a certain elegance and look entirely at home in a Dracula movie, what with the flowy white robes and whatnot. (On average, the women fare better than men.) Others, like John Holmes, who plays a character named Dr. Stoker, absolutely do not belong in a Dracula movie. Were Holmes a more forceful an actor, he could have had the same effect as Joe Dallesandro in Blood for Dracula (whose thick New York accent matches his character's arrogance and sociopathy), but alas, he feels more like someone in a Saturday Night Live sketch. And yes, if you must know, the bite that turns him into a vampire is on his, uh, claim to fame. Some of the actors fall somewhere in the middle, like John Leslie and Kay Parker as Dr. Seward and his sister, in that they're good actors even if they never really feel of the period. (The two have a scene that anticipates Parker's landmark role in Taboo. It's still a shock to me how prevalent incest was in these movies, given that mainstream modern porn goes out of its way to avoid it.)

Which brings me to Dracula, who is played by Jamie Gillis with a beard. Gillis has been terrific in other films I've seen with him, but I never found he disappeared into this role. He models himself explicitly on Bela Lugosi and delivers much of the same dialogue in a decent approximation of his accent, but where Lugosi embodied a certain otherworldly quality, Gillis comes off like he's play acting the part. Let me put it this way: when watching Browning's Dracula, I can't shake the suspicion that Lugosi might be a real vampire, so Gillis, despite an admirable attempt, can't help but feel like a Dracula hired for a children's birthday party in comparison. He recreates Lugosi's confrontation with Edward Van Sloan's Van Helsing, the role here played by Reggie Nalder (who does not get to ****), and the result is noticeably campier. (Nalder is one of those people who definitely feels at home in this movie.) I must also make note of Richard Bulik as Renfield, who resembles Matthew Modine and is certainly no Dwight Frye but makes an admirable attempt at that kind of manic performance, and Paul Thomas as Jonathan Harker, who seems to actually play the piano and sing in one of his scenes.

The movie is directed by Phillip Marshak, whose Night Train to Terror I did not enjoy and left me with the most maddening, painful earworm I can remember in quite some time ("Dance with me, dance with me..."). That being said, he does have a decent handle on horror imagery and produces some of the visuals you'd expect from a vampire movie. Lots of fog and bluish lighting, vampire women in white, flowy robes, and of course the castle giving everything a touch more atmosphere. The comedic elements feel awkwardly inserted in comparison (hence why I feel it's a stretch to call it a parody), but I did chuckle regularly, particularly the manner in which Dracula dispatches Harker. There's also a running gag involving the radio, and I did like the use the dialogue from another Lugosi film (I think it's The Devil Bat, but I could very well be mistaken). Truth be told, the movie is kind of a mess, but also more committed to being a Dracula story than you might expect, given the genre's track record. I understand there is a shorter, more explicit cut available (the version I watched runs 95 minutes and trims most of the sex scenes, although I wouldn't call it softcore given that penetration is shown), but given that the best parts of this are outside the sex scenes, I suspect that one is only preferable for the raincoat brigade.

Dracula Exotica I've seen referred to as a follow-up to Dracula Sucks, but aside from Jamie Gillis returning as Dracula (this time clean shaven, as he normally was; O Gillis' beard, we hardly knew ye!), it's a completely unrelated movie. This one starts centuries ago, when a pre-vampiric Dracula was courting a woman played by Samantha Fox, whose family didn't approve of him so she turned to God and he turned to debauchery. But one day in a drunken rage, in the middle of a debauched gathering (featuring such wildly ill-fitting actors for the period as Marlene Willoughby, who I liked as the dowdy neighbour in A Woman's Torment, and Ron Jeremy, who I instinctively try to shoo off the screen whenever I see him, although he does juggle in this), he rapes her, and then after she commits suicide, wracked with guilt, he condemns himself to vampirism. Now, rape scenes can be uncomfortable to watch and their presence in pornography has an added nauseating quality given that they're often meant to arouse, but I must note that I found Fox's performance in this scene dramatically effective.

The movie then jumps to present day (or 1979/1980, whenever this film was shot), and Dracula's home has been turned into a museum visited by another woman played by Samantha Fox. As we find out, Count Dracula is alive and well (or as alive and well as a guilt-ridden vampire can be) and finds himself in the middle of some international intrigue involving Romanian intelligence, the CIA (sorry, "F.I.B.", which stands for the "Federal Intelligence Bureau") and a smuggling ring run by Vanessa Del Rio. This is further complicated by the fact the Dracula develops feelings for Fox, who happens to be tasked with killing him. Will love conquer all? Or will Dracula's immortality end less ceremoniously? I wouldn't dare reveal the outcome, but will hint that a little bat guano goes a long way.

Now, as you can guess, this is far from a conventional vampire movie, but what surprised me was how well it fit together. Certainly, there are the requisite elements (spooky vampire women, crypts, fog; a few more foggy movies and I finally get that decoder ring), but they blend surprisingly smoothly with the thriller elements and seedy pre-cleanup NYC atmosphere. The mix of elements and modern setting also mean that this movie doesn't have the same issues with incongruous casting as Dracula Sucks aside from the first few minutes. I actually liked Gillis a lot more in this than in the other movie, largely because he seems to be playing an actual character in this rather than just doing a Bela Lugosi impression. Samantha Fox provides the film's emotional core, and is a performer I've grown increasingly fond of merely for her presence in movies (I've developed a fondness for certain vintage porn actors the same way I like seeing the same group of actors pop up in Italian horror movies). Eric Edwards plays her CIA (sorry, "F.I.B.") superior in the movie's shrewdest bit of casting, his square-jawed, slightly stodgy quality a perfect fit for the contemptible authority figure he's supposed to be, and he delivers lines like "Goodbye you ****ing commie greaser" like he's spitting out chewing tobacco. (In a nice touch, he plays the entire role behind aviator sunglasses.) And of course, I must acknowledge the extremely forceful presence of Vanessa Del Rio, who does an exaggerated accent but later puts a racist cop in his place in a scene where she sports a corset and bat wings. She also wears a well chosen pair of glasses when disguised as Dracula's secretary, and folks, I'm not made of stone.

While at 100 minutes, it runs a little longer than I like from the genre, it clips along at a pretty steady pace, even if it takes over half the movie for Dracula to board the ship and come to America. This is the first film I've seen from Shaun Costello, and while I can't attest to how this compares to the rest of his work, I did feel the presence of a sure hand who'd made enough of these movies to know how to keep them engaging. Even when delivering the obligatory sex scenes, which seem devised for maximum variety (there's even one that caters to those who enjoyed the morgue scene in Bad Boys II), there is an enthusiasm and imagination present that makes them feel far from perfunctory. I must confess that I didn't find a lot of them arousing personally (and the aforementioned rape scene I found quite hard to watch), but the climactic scene between Gillis and Fox combines the emotional throughline of the story with the vampiric atmosphere in a way that's surprisingly erotic and artful.

Dracula Sucks

Dracula Exotica



Actually the 1994 Spanish film, which was a part of the recently released folk-horror box set. (I grabbed a nice-looking version off of youtube a couple of months ago, an upgrade to the not-so-nice-looking youtube version I grabbed several years ago.)


Spanish? I'm under the impression that it's mostly done with Russian money by Italian masterminds and a UK production company overseeing things.

In any case, it's a quite good film and a damn good looking one, too.
__________________



Spanish? I'm under the impression that it's mostly done with Russian money by Italian masterminds and a UK production company overseeing things.
Hm. I was thinking that it involved an island off the coast of Spain. Maybe that's what confused me.



Hm. I was thinking that it involved an island off the coast of Spain. Maybe that's what confused me.
I don't remember if it's said in the movie where the island is, but it's shot somewhere in Ukraine.