MoFo's Religion

Perhaps...but even though I don't know him, I know it must go beyond that. For whatever reason, virtually every atheist in existence gives a crap about other people. They give a crap about things that don't effect them directly, and they give a crap about what'll happen to their family/children/friends after they die. WHY?

I couldn't agree more. Christians who like to chalk EVERYTHING up to being "part of God's plan" and act as if everything is pre-determined are one of the banes of my existence. Seriously. An enemy is usually less threatening than a friend dismantling you unwittingly from the inside. IMO, people who subscribe to those sorts of beliefs are giving religious beliefs a bad name, and assocating Faith with impotency, in a way.

The problem there is authenticity--who's to say what's authentic and what's not, especially in spiritual matters. For all I know, the born-agains have it right, and I am going to hell.

__________________
You were a demon and a lawyer? Wow. Insert joke here."

DON'T ASK. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.



I don't know of too many religious individuals who believe entirely in predestination, and I would absolutely love to avoid that particular rhetorical quagmire.

Because humans are naturally curious beings. If you don't have a system of belief or a metaphyiscal system that explains the unanswered questions in life, I think you're going to wonder.

__________________
Everything is destined to reappear as simulation.
Jean Baudrillard
America, 1988

I already addressed this question. Because I find religion to be a very interesting subject. It happens to be one of the most dominant, and in my opinion, destructive forces on the planet. Maybe that's an understatement. That is just one reason why it intruiges me so much.

Ah. Once again, we witness your wacky inability to understand why others besides theists should care about anyone but themselves and have any opinions more valid than which color is the best color. I tried to explain it to you before; I think I'll give up on you getting it, and let someone else try to explain it to you

__________________
One of the biggest myths told is that being intelligent is the absence of the ability to do stupid things.

I see several possibilities:

1 - Free will does not exist.
2 - Free will does exist and therefore God does not have things all mapped out.
3 - Free will exists, God kinda has things mapped out, and we as humans are not technically capable of understanding why there is no contradiction.

Well, yes...of course. That's not quite what I mean, though. I'll explain after quoting firegod...

Hmmm, well, first of all, I assure you no valid reason was ever given. Secondly, I think there's a miscommunication here. And it is this:

I am not asking why you would feel the impulse of compassion. Obviously that's engrained into your mind...be it through a deity or some sort, or millions of years of natural selection. However, if you can identify this instinct as NOT serving you, but only the survival of your race, then why don't you resist it? Why don't you fight it?

What I think you're asking about is the possibility of a source of absolute moral values. For a lot of people, this is God. For atheists or agnostics, it's something else, or it's nothing. Moral relativism has never tickled my pickle, though.

I think it's safe to say that fundamentalist Christians do not share your particular values, and you don't share theirs. So, you each have a set of values. Which value is more objectively "right"? Well, what measuring stick are you using?

I think you see the problem.

Miscommunication? I used the same word you did: should. I have my morals because of instincts, reason, and emotion. I have never found any reason to fight those morals. Why should I?

No, no, no! I'm not asking you why you have moral impulses...or why you feel something is right...but rather, why you ADHERE to it.

You, I imagine, believe that we feel that killing is wrong because, aside from being brought up that way, we've evolved as a race because races that DON'T value life in some way are doomed to die quickly. That makes logical sense.

However, that only explains why you have those impulses...why your emotions and instincts point that way. However, you and I both know that emotion and instinct is only half the battle. Reason comes into play. Now, doesn't your reason tell you that the emotion and instinct involved do nothing to serve you at all, but only your race as a whole? Surely it does.

So then why do you care? If you and I are nothing more than a smatter of chemicals and cells, with no meaning, purpose, right, or wrong behind us or our reason for being here, then why would you ever yield to your instincts when you logically know that they do nothing to help you as an individual?

Atch. But that's assuming there is a God in the picture. I know where you're coming from, but to really struggle with the issue of free will I think you have to look comprehensively at free will alongside the possibility of monotheism as well as systems of belief with many or no gods.

Besides which, I find it too easy to just throw in the "we are incapable of understand" card. Sure, maybe we are: I'm willing to accept that possibility. But as soon as you say that, it seems that a lot of people lose interest in TRYING to understand, and that bothers me. Even if I have no chance at all of ever understanding something, I'm still going to keep trying, indefinately.

Added: I hate to leave in the middle of these discussions, but I've got to go do something else for a while. Keep it going folks.

Well, it's not a "card" because I'm not "playing it" per se. I don't think it's a viable argument...I think it's a cop-out...but I have to acknowledge it as a possibility, which is all that I'm doing here.

Yes, it is sticky...but there's really no argument to be made about free will unless we're talking about God anyway. If no God exists, then what does it matter? Yeah, we've got free will under that scenario. There's no argument to be made as far as I can see.

I realized that months ago.

One thing that is important to know in this stupid "why should atheists adhere to their morals" debate is that I don't COMPLETELY understand how all of my morals and beliefs came about. I say it is mostly reason, but I don't understand all of it completely. Having said that, all I can do is go with my morals and beliefs. Why would I fight my anti-murder moral and go around killing people? Because my reason tells me that moral only helps others and not me? That makes absolutely no sense at all.

I don't know exactly why I care. But I do care, and I think that is enough. I never said my morals don't help me as an individual. Most of my morals come from logic, and to me, they make perfect sense to have.

Okay....I could have used better language there. Point taken.

Yes, it is sticky...but there's really no argument to be made about free will unless we're talking about God anyway. If no God exists, then what does it matter? Yeah, we've got free will under that scenario. There's no argument to be made as far as I can see.

I don't think God is necessary to the idea of free will. For instance, you could ask if man can make choices independent of his social, intellectual and biological pressures. That's the nature vs. nurture question, and I think it's a very legitimate one.


Added: Whee. Another interesting thread killed with poor timing and obscurity. Dammit.

Reason says you shouldn't go around killing people because it would result in your destruction or imprisonment. And I think it is far from "stupid." I can't necessarily be held responsible if you just don't seem to see what it is I'm saying. I think I've made it pretty darn simple at this point.

What about the ones that don't? Example: there's no reason for you to care about what happens to people after you die. But I'll bet you'll care anyway. Why? If it's nothing more than instinct, and you've identified it as such, then WHY?

I'm not sure what you mean by it being "enough." I'm glad you care, and I think I know why you care, but based on your beliefs, you care about things that, logically, you shouldn't care about. Things that don'te help you at all. Try to see things from an alternative perspective: you don't believe in right and wrong, yet you adhere to a personal right and wrong. You (seemingly) try to base your life around logic, let you give in to instinct and emotion even when it's clear they do not benefit you.

I see something that recurs in these discussions of ours: you act as if it's nonsense to propose this or that, but I think you're forgetting that I'm arguing from your standpoint here. In your world, right and wrong simply DO NOT exist. So why should it be absurd that you would do whatever it takes to get you what you want? Many evil people (or at least, evil by most standards...Hitler's no more evil than you or I without a deity) have led happy lives.

So, I ask you again: if there is no right and wrong...if this whole world is a chaotic mess of genetic crap...if a lot of your instincts are built into you to benefit humans as a whole, and not you as an individual, why, when you recognize one of them, would you fail to fight it?

Fair enough...though I've yet to come across anyone making that argument. Outside influence is 100% inevitable...free will doesn't require absolutely no interference or attempts at persuasion. I wouldn't say consumers viewing a television station saturated with Pepsi ads lack the free will to buy something else, obviously.

Naw...I just needed to get myself to bed.

Did anyone else notice that Mr. Pike chose None? Surprise surprise, eh? It's a shame he isn't likely to hop in the ring for a few rounds. I wouldn't mind a quick dance; and surely he has nothing to fear from a teenage homeschooler.

ok fellas let me break it down for ya.man is given free will from God, but God already knows the choices he is going to make. Therefore He has control and will always have control.

__________________
"Aim high, it costs no more to shoot at eagles then it does to shoot at skunks"

I disagree. If God knows everything that will happen, I don't think we can reasonably be said to have Free Will...and I find Free Will essential to Christian beliefs.

BTW, I for one noticed I chose NONE, and boy did you nail it, Commishy: I'm oh so afraid, and that's why I choose to believe in an invisible man in the sky who watches everything we do and loves us, unless of course we go against him and he'll send us to eternal damnation.

Oh, wait, I don't believe in that at all. Nevermind.

How truly horrible that I don't have religion in my life. At least I do have a sh!tload of LDs and DVDs to keep me entertained while upon this mortal coil.


As you all were.

__________________
"Film is a disease. When it infects your bloodstream it takes over as the number one hormone. It bosses the enzymes, directs the pineal gland, plays Iago to your psyche. As with heroin, the antidote to Film is more Film." - Frank Capra

I was going for nothing but hit "other" by accident.

god help me.

__________________
Another high quality post by Fez Wizardo

What a ridiculous way to look at things. Who said He SENDS us anywhere, Holds? Or did you just fill in that blank yourself? Or have you been taking Pat Robertson seriously?