Next Countdown: decade, or something else?

I think that is really unlikely. But more importantly, I don't really understand why "no new ones" would mean "no discussion." Look at how much discussion there was in the Refresh list just now, with films we've all talked about over and over.

I suppose each person can answer that for themselves. But I think from experience we can see there's generally a lot of interest in a) the specific order and b) discussions even about the films a lot of people have already seen. I'll grant that might not be as interesting to you, personally, though.

I will, yes. Will others? A fine question that neither of us can hope to answer.

I'll just note, again, that what you "can" actually expose people to is always much larger than what you will expose them to. And if the problem is that there isn't nearly enough foreign representation, that means a foreign films list needs to consider both sides of that. Are you going to get more meaningful viewing and exposure by going deeper right away, or by starting more modestly and increasing exposure over time? In most forms of teaching (for lack of a better word), it's the latter.

I think that's a pretty significant overstatement, but even if tempered we probably just have irreconcilable differences here. All I can really say is that list participation is a very important part of this, and not a part that can be taken for granted. If you do a foreign films list that gets 10 participants and they ALL dive deeply into a lot of new cinema, I'm not sure that's better than 70 people who dangle their legs in as a precursor for more down the line. Since we probably can't agree on which side to emphasize, I'll settle for simply hoping everyone can agree (and appreciate) that there's obviously a tradeoff here, and that there's obviously a point at which one or the other can be a net loss even with the explicit priority of getting people to watch new things.

Yeah I was thinking about that too. If we do some version of a multi regional foreign language countdown, how many people are going to be able to put together multiple voting ballots? Not me....Siddon, Holden Pike, MarkF, Cricket and a few others could...But how many people would then send in ballots. Not many I think.

Which is like a large number of MoFos. I haven't seen nearly enough Foreign films to put together multiple voting ballots for different regions of the world.

Yup, besides if we included English language films from other countries then the top spots will be stuff like Lord of the Rings.

Yes! I like that...that's how I'd view it too.

Which is why we do the Hall of Fames and 6 months of discussions..as for you not having enough experience you participate in the halls why don't you actually sit down and try and do one for Japan or France. Actually I could likely do your lists for each region based upon your participation in other halls.



Then this is why we shouldn't do it because the ballots are just going to be the basics. We do this exercise and 10 months later 3 filmmakers make up 25% of the final list.

...but what if "the basics" exposes a bunch of new people to a new level of foreign cinema, that leads to more over time?

I think it would be more productive, in these discussions, to try to articulate our respective goals upfront. From this discussion I think I've gleaned that, to you, the primary goal is producing a list you like and respect and feel is representative of foreign films (either generally or for a country/region). But it's important to note that this goal is almost directly at odds with the goal, for example, of getting people who haven't viewed many foreign films to view more of them, since that goal is obviously best served a little more gradually. I mean, to a linguist the ABCs are "the basics," but that's how you start learning. So is the class for the expert or the beginner?

If your position is "yes, we'll lose some people, but I care more about the final list itself than the participants or their exposure to new things," that's completely fair, of course. Because then at least then it's clear you see the trade-offs and simply have different priorities, as opposed to maybe thinking we can have it both ways.

I think you overestimate the love for Argento, Bava and Fulci on these forums

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Yeah, there's that, too: I don't think it'd be as homogenized as implied here, but obviously that involves guesswork, so I'm keeping to the structural stuff.

Raul did a Japanese Film HoF awhile back. Like I previously said, I was planning on doing a series of Foreign Language HoFs (by region, or by film movement, or period) but only if we can agree to do a Foreign Language countdown. So far we haven't got there yet.

Who? Seriously, I've never heard of them.

It was a joke. They're big names of Italian horror, though, so many people here have heard of them, and my list, even in a general foreign countdown, will have more than one film directed by a member of that trio.

How much exposure are you really going to get if say for Japan you end up with say 25 titles...


Spirited Away, Battle Royale, RAN, Princess Mononoke,Akira,Sonatine, Grave of the Fireflies, My Neighbor Totoro, Tokyo Story, Castle in the Sky, Yojimbo, Woman in the Dunes, High & Low, Red Beard, Harakiri,The Seven Samurai, Rashōmon, Ikiru, Throne of Blood, Sansho the Bailiff, Late Spring,The Hidden Fortress, Hausu, Onibaba, Ugestu

Let's say you get have 25 Japanese film's making the list, how many filmmakers would you have.

Akira Kurosawa (9)- The Hidden Fortress,Throne of Blood, The Seven Samurai, Rashōmon, Ikiru, High & Low, Red Beard, Yojimbo, RAN

Hayao Miyazaki(4) - Spirited Away, My Neighbor Totoro, Castle in the Sky, Princess Mononoke,

Kenji Mizoguchi(2) - Ugestu, Sansho the Bailiff

Yasujirō Ozu(2) - Late Spring,Tokyo Story


That's 4 filmmakers that will cover 80% of the Japanese noms, will this really foster discussion or a strong list. And conversely what happens if people decide to put a cap on their Kurosawa noms?


Do you want to spend 6 months and at the end of it the lesson is..Japan yeah just watch animated films and Kurosawa. What good does that really do? How much discussion and interest is their going to be just to come up with results we knew about at the start of this process

I think we're talking past each other a little bit, since you appear to just be repeating the questions I'm asking back to me. When you say "what good does that do?" that's actually the question I'm posing to you, but in reverse: what good does it do to set the bar high if fewer people are willing to jump over it? I've already answered it on my end, too, in the previous post: it gets people started to exploring foreign cinema more. You say "only" 25 titles...but that's maybe 20 more than some people have seen.

You obviously don't have to agree with me, but I've gone out of my way a few times to point out that emphasizing different things is reasonable...and yet I don't really get the sense we're on the same page about the trade offs here, as evidenced by my many attempts to summarize them never being met with any kind of acknowledgement. So I don't really have much more to say about it, unless/until there's some new reply that actually builds off that or actually confirms the "are you saying you just prefer X to Y?" questions I keep asking. I don't see much point in an exchange where one person is trying to do that and the other refuses to confirm or clarify it.

I will say one additional specific thing, though, replying to this:

As I noted a few posts ago (it was another point that didn't really seem to get any response, for some reason, even though it's highly relevant), there was tons of discussion about the list we just finished, even about titles almost everyone had seen and talked about before. So the answer is: probably a lot.

It's important not to universalize our individual reactions here. Some of these lists might not make you want to discuss it, or mind seem bland to you, or be full of films you've already seen and have nothing new to say anything about. But the whole point of this lists is that they bring together people of different tastes and, yes, viewing breadth.

Ah, yes, the holy trinity. Although I’m not a big fan of Fulci from what I’ve seen of his.
Bava I just started to dive into last year and enjoyed Blood and Black Lace. Really need to get into more of his.
Incidentally, may I get a recommendation of what you think would be the films to watch first of his? Other then Black Sunday, Blood and Black Lace....and I think I Twitch of the Death Nerve? *
What others would you suggest of his? Especially outside of his giallo.

Also, if we do foreign film, 3 of my films I’m likely to put in this are The Ox, The Thief, and The Dawns Here Are Quiet (original version). Neither of those are from a big name director that most would recognize instantly. Although Nykvist (The Ox) might be for fans of Bergman.
He was his cinematographer for many of his films.

I'm partial to noir too, especially black & white films.

There's MANY more directors than just "Bergman and Kurosawa", but more importantly, it's a movie countdown, not a director. The thread I'm most active in is the "Rate the Last Movie.." (and the alternate Movie Tab II?) and there's so many great foreign movies I've seen thanks to a rating, score, and who is doing the viewing. Hell, I complain a lot about movies made in my lifetime not being close to the quality of pre-matt72582, but I keep an open mind, and thanks to just one member, Stirchley, I saw two 8/10s (I don't give them out easily) that were foreign and made in this century, and there are many more..


It seems our foreign movie fans are a little fragmented. Sometimes I'll see a movie months later, and don't wanna bump it up for a single comment, but I think the benefit of this kind of countdown is that we would expand beyond just the classics. Many times I think, "If you liked that movie, you'll love THIS one" and members here will tell you I will send them a private message or leave a profile comment, although I must admit I only do this with those I "know", even better reason for a category. My 2nd choice is Noir, but I don't think many Noir fans would make discoveries, and Noir are more defined - the femme fatale, etc. etc., and many movies are similar.... This could be an opportunity for a handful of frustrated members here who I won't name, but contribute when/if there's anything out of the mainstream. I know, I ask for recommendations, and get movies I never heard of (despite how much I think I know) and movies I'd never encounter anyway, those that weren't on my 2,000 movie "watch-list".



Shadows in Paradise, Sult, Il Sorpasso, Knife in the Water, Chit-Chat On The Nile, His Days Are Numbered, The Sign of the Leo, Purple Noon, Accatone, Fist in Pocket, The Roof, Boy, Pather Panchali, The Cranes Are Flying, A Woman in the Dunes, Pitfall, La Promesse, Whity, Dry Summer, La Notti Bianche, The Working-Class Goes To Heaven, Taste of Cherry, Ordet, Marriage Italian Style, Il Gido, Pickpocket, No Regrets For Our Youth, Paradise: Love, The Forest For the Trees, Ivan's Childhood, Le Cercle Rouge, Purple Noon, Night at Maud's, My Brilliant Career, Viridiana, Cairo Station, Carriage to Vienna, Two Half Times in Hell, Tsotsi, City of God, Rana's Wedding, etc

I named those off the top of my head, including only a couple of more recognizable ones on purpose, omitting Bergman and Kurosawa, who also have movies people gloss over... Movies from all over the world, from every decade, continent, and movies that are noir, comedy, drama, thriller, action, adventure, horror.


I hate doing this kind of lobbying, but the average member can't get into something if it's never presented to them. In the last couple of years, I've sorta "converted" those around me in real life who would never watch a b&w foreign flick, but once given a chance, its like discovering new foods. At first, you might think "That looks or smells different" but after you give it a chance, you could get plenty of new, unexpected joy.... And I know a handful who know MANY more foreign movies than myself.

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I think you mean noir and blanc.

I'm wondering if there are more than 6-8 members that are real familiar with global international films. I'm certainly not. Sure, I know a handful of international films, but I wouldn't participate in such a contest since I simply don't know enough to be knowledgeable about what's out there.

Believe it or not I'd say it's closer to 6-8 members who are not.

I'm an amateur to Foreign films but a list of 25 is completely easy to compile for me.

That’s a really solid list there. I’ve seen some, heard of most. To toss in a few more, there’s The Assassin, Dust in the Wind, A Chinese Ghost Story, Alexandria... Why?, The One Armed Swordsman...I’m sure more will come to mind at some point.