“Ironic”

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I’ve been reading about Evan Rachel Wood’s allegations/case against Marilyn Manson. Nothing surprising there - it’s the logic of, “If it smells like shit and looks like shit…”, etc. But one of the articles on the subject includes the following extract:

Wood, who began dating Manson when she was 18 and he was 38, says that she thought the Nazi paraphernalia and imagery Manson used on stage “was ironic”, adding: “I thought his whole spiel was taking the images of Hitler and spinning it on its head. I thought it was a commentary on Nazism.
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...00004.html?amp

Now, I’m aware Wood is no scholar and that she was making a media statement. But this extract made me think of the ways in which the word “ironic” is used, especially when it comes to so-called subversive art, which is not unlike cases where something abjectly bad is called a “satire” with the implication that if the effect is deliberate, the thing can’t be “bad” any longer (eg Showgirls). It’s as if “ironic” means “not for real”, but all it technically means is something is different from what was expected.

This also applies to people like Lars von Trier (not that “ironic” is a word that comes to mind here), even when it’s about something like The House That Jack Built purportedly being a “commentary” on violence/violent people ending up in hell etc. If we’re making a film with a remarkably stupid blonde character who has no agency and few lines, can anyone seriously be expected to take that as “ironic” or as social “commentary” implying that, oh, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, we know blondes aren’t really stupid, don’t we, boys and girls?

I’m not sure whether it wouldn’t be better to call a spade a spade in these cases. It’s not that I doubt Wood did genuinely believe Manson’s behaviour was “ironic”, after all she was young and in love and so on, but I do wonder why when we see an artist revel in something transgressive we don’t think, “Wait, this person could actually be for real” more often, or at least think that before anything else. I don’t know if I see how one can coherently argue Nazism can be “spun on its head”, and the same goes for so many things, even von Trier’s comments about Hitler. I really have to wonder who would take that kind of comment to be “ironic”.



Lars Von Trier and Showgirls are great.

Manson seems to be an abusive monster that effectively hid behind shock. Many artists that use shock as a tactic are not monsters.



Lars Von Trier and Showgirls are great.

Manson seems to be an abusive monster that effectively hid behind shock. Many artists that use shock as a tactic are not monsters.
I don’t think Showgirls is great, though it’s alright, and von Trier certainly is. That’s not really the point. Why would anyone take such behaviour to be “ironic” to begin with?



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i personally find the accusations concerning manson to be believable, even though i personally never advocate using the legal system to solve problems even though it does make sense every once in a while. However i don't know how to answer any of your reflections on irony, satire, etc. I feel like we all need to get especially good at defending ourselves against abusive behavior and know when someone is being a hypocrite to get along in this world at all.



i personally find the accusations concerning manson to be believable, even though i personally never advocate using the legal system to solve problems even though it does make sense every once in a while. However i don't know how to answer any of your reflections on irony, satire, etc. I feel like we all need to get especially good at defending ourselves against abusive behavior and know when someone is being a hypocrite to get along in this world at all.
I don’t disagree. I also realise that the reference to Manson is likely distracting (the conversation wasn’t meant to be about that), but that use of “ironic” was what genuinely kick-started my thought process on this, so I alluded to it.



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I don’t disagree. I also realise that the reference to Manson is likely distracting (the conversation wasn’t meant to be about that), but that use of “ironic” was what genuinely kick-started my thought process on this, so I alluded to it.

to me there's nothing ironic about what he does, it is all just meant to shock people...not much in the way of comedic value there. I like his album "holy wood" but other than that i've never felt like he was very entertaining.


Unfortunately i don't know about these movies you mention...if i could get a cabin in the woods, go for a walk, read books, watch movies for the rest of my life...i wouldn't consider that to be a punishment!



That elusive hide-and-seek cow is at it again
Maybe she's mixing ironic with sarcastic. At first read, I thought maybe she was speaking in the present tense, remembering back and then pointing to his actions in history to be ironic in the sense that when she was younger, she thought he was just putting on a performance. As time went on, she realized, ironically, that no, he's actually just abusive and kinda makes sense that he would use nazi imagery after all. So in a sense, it could be ironic that after all this time he really was the guy he was miming on stage as if it was just a character bit.

After reading more into the article though, I don't think that's the case as she is later quoted: “Things like that are not ironic anymore. At what point are you doing a commentary and at what point are you just a Nazi?” Not being ironic anymore leads me to believe that no, she actually thinks she believed his stage persona was ironic at the time of experiencing it.

Maybe she just doesn't understand the use of irony? That, combined with a bullet point type of article that doesn't seem to bother digging into anything or elaborating, just muddies the waters more. Perhaps the documentary itself sheds light, but I doubt it. She was 18 at the time and who really knows anything but assuming we already know everything at 18? Assuming she misused the term at 18, maybe she's just never been challenged on it in casual conversation since?

I like to think that one day, in the distant future, her obituary might read "She was loved by her family of [bla bla bla]; and at the age of 94, it was ironic that she passed away so suddenly."


o.O
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After reading more into the article though, I don't think that's the case as she is later quoted: “Things like that are not ironic anymore. At what point are you doing a commentary and at what point are you just a Nazi?” Not being ironic anymore leads me to believe that no, she actually thinks she believed his stage persona was ironic at the time of experiencing it.
Exactly.

Maybe she just doesn't understand the use of irony? That, combined with a bullet point type of article that doesn't seem to bother digging into anything or elaborating, just muddies the waters more…. Assuming she misused the term at 18, maybe she's just never been challenged on it in casual conversation since?

I like to think that one day, in the distant future, her obituary might read "She was loved by her family of [bla bla bla]; and at the age of 94, it was ironic that she passed away so suddenly."
o.O
This is what I thought and what made me wonder.

And yes to that obituary 👏



I don’t think Showgirls is great, though it’s alright, and von Trier certainly is. That’s not really the point. Why would anyone take such behaviour to be “ironic” to begin with?
There are various motivations to be shocking and edgy, many of which are financial, and not representative of someone's actual feelings.

Comedian Anthony Jezelnik makes jokes about killing babies.

He does not actually kill babies.



The swastika has been used ironically in music, particularly at the beginning of the British punk scene, so much that it is not only frequently employed ironically, but it's also mostly become boring provocation. Edgelord shit for those without much of an imagination.



As for Manson's use of the symbol, I always took it to align with his views of organized religion, and how he generally views that as a kind of fascistic order. The AntiChrist Superstar era in particular was heavy with Nazi imagery (book desecrations, mock rallies, flags, salutes, uniforms and swastikas). And while I was never under the impression that he was a particularly good guy, it was never his use of swastika's that made me hip to what a dick he might be. Nor did I at any time think he was exactly the kind of monster it is appearing he truly was/is.



Nor did I at any time think he was exactly the kind of monster it is appearing he truly was/is.
I’m confused. You didn’t think Manson was a monster for murdering Sharon Tate & her unborn child?
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There are various motivations to be shocking and edgy, many of which are financial, and not representative of someone's actual feelings.

Comedian Anthony Jezelnik makes jokes about killing babies.

He does not actually kill babies.

I don't remember any baby killing jokes, but he does have a thing for DROPPING babies! He's one of my favorite comedians even though he's pretty formulaic.


And yeah MM did have a thing against Christianity, well never know his real reasons for fronting as a nazi, I think it's fine as a comedic device or prop but I just don't see it as anything but as a way to offend people and get attention. I wonder how Europe would have been different if they didn't ban the swastika.



That elusive hide-and-seek cow is at it again
I’m confused. You didn’t think Manson was a monster for murdering Sharon Tate & her unborn child?
different manson the pop/rock star.



There are various motivations to be shocking and edgy, many of which are financial, and not representative of someone's actual feelings.

Comedian Anthony Jezelnik makes jokes about killing babies.

He does not actually kill babies.
Yes, people (especially artists) construct personas not representative of their real selves, but again, nothing about these personas is usually ironic. They are maybe exaggerated or whatnot. The one example I can think of is Sacha Baron Cohen, whose “persona” is purportedly Kazakh, but if anything, Borat makes me think that the man didn’t even bother filming the thing in Kazakhstan. There is nothing “ironic” about portraying Kazakhstan as perverse and backwards when you clearly have no idea what it’s like out there. I what may be called ironic as a stretch is that SBC would argue he’s out to “critique” everything, as usual. Even that as I type it makes me think that SBC is likely entirely oblivious to the reputational damage and headache he has caused Kazakhstan and his own bigotry.

Re: Jezelnik, even so, I’m not sure these jokes are “ironic”. Irony is not just any old humour and irony require humour. There are things which are ironic but not humorous (such as, I don’t know, getting an all-clear after a 10-year cancer battle and being hit by a car the same day). Joking that I could kill my eight-month-old because he cries all the time is not ironic.

Besides, I see a slight distinction; killing babies is not really a thing, whereas antisemitism is an “attitude”, it is ubiquitous like arguably never before. People who are not interested in infanticide can potentially make a killing babies joke for whatever reason, as no actual babies are being harmed, and so on. Making “jokes”/comments at the expense of a group, E.g. Jews as with Manson, is unlikely to appeal to people who harbour absolutely no ill feeling/prejudice against Jews, unless they have a limited understanding of what they are saying (partly because that does cause real harm, but also because it’s an odd thing to do unless you secretly dislike Jews.) I’m amased that it had to get to Manson writing “kill all the Jews” on Wood’s bedroom wall for her to think, Hey, maaaaaybe this ain’t irony?



The swastika has been used ironically in music, particularly at the beginning of the British punk scene, so much that it is not only frequently employed ironically, but it's also mostly become boring provocation. Edgelord shit for those without much of an imagination.



As for Manson's use of the symbol, I always took it to align with his views of organized religion, and how he generally views that as a kind of fascistic order. The AntiChrist Superstar era in particular was heavy with Nazi imagery (book desecrations, mock rallies, flags, salutes, uniforms and swastikas). And while I was never under the impression that he was a particularly good guy, it was never his use of swastika's that made me hip to what a dick he might be. Nor did I at any time think he was exactly the kind of monster it is appearing he truly was/is.
I don’t disagree in terms of the swastika as a mere symbol, but I do think his antisemitism has often been pretty self-evident. I do believe that, if someone you’re sleeping with makes such jokes/exhibits such attitudes, it’s very weird for you not to wonder whether they actually believe that.

My mother makes awfully snobbish classist jokes left, right and centre, she’ll be the first to tell anyone that it’s just humour, but I know for a fact she really is a snob and looks down on people. I don’t believe such things can exist in isolation.



I don’t disagree in terms of the swastika as a mere symbol, but I do think his antisemitism has often been pretty self-evident.

Not to me. Not saying there wasn't already evidence of it out there. There was possibly some of it that I was aware of at the time, but just dismissed it as part of his schtick. When you are talking about someone who seemed to be in character, even when off stage a lot of the time, it is hard to reckon what is ironic and what is a legitimate belief. Especially at that particular time. In the 90's there were leagues of comedians using racist humor ironically. Embracing the stereotypes in order to undermine them. Make them look grotesque or ignorant or stupid. Bring them up as a point of mockery. So when it came to Manson, I never saw anything that made me think any of his controversies were anything much beyond his character absorbing all of the evils of the world and making something very ugly to bring on stage. Clearly, as the last couple of years have shown, there was more Brian Warner in Marilyn Manson than I initially suspected.



My mother makes awfully snobbish classist jokes left, right and centre, she’ll be the first to tell anyone that it’s just humour, but I know for a fact she really is a snob and looks down on people. I don’t believe such things can exist in isolation.

I can't speak for your mother, but I generally make fun of everything (or rather, used to) including horrible things that have affected me directly. I guarantee you people can make jokes about things in this way and still completely abhor the attitude they are adopting for the sake of irony.



Irony is frequently (maybe always) deployed where there is a lot of anger towards something. For example, Jonathan Swift wasn't secretly hoping to eat Irish babies. His venom was directed towards the rich, even though if you take what he writes literally, they come off completely unscathed. Irony masks its intended target.