Abortion; Why?

Tools    





I may not be right Gracie, but nor are you.
You don't know that, for one thing, and I never said I was right in the first place!

The great doctor who is going cure cancer isn't going to be born with the cure for cancer in him; the person he becomes doesn't come from nine months in the womb, for crying out loud, it comes from nine years being brought up by his or her parents.
Actually, he'll have it in his mind, eventually, and it could be pushed back. And what if he grows up to be someone who talks people out of suicide, or stop them from doing drugs? What if he grows up to stop people form killing themselves, or others, or both? And if people don't want a baby, they don't have to have one. It's called "Adoption"! MAYBE YOU'VE HEARD OF IT!!! They don't need to kill innocent lives. And who are we to judge how innocent or useless they are? They're absolutely innocent of anything we've ever done. Some of the most poweful men were like that before. What if George W. Bush was disposed of? Or Ronald Reagan? Or George Whitfield? They're the onse who made what we live in today, and they were absolutley powerless once, completely vulnerable to anyone who comes along, playing God, and deciding who lives and who dies. If people are wreckless enough to go off and get themselve pregnant, then the punishment should be on their shoulders, nto the shoulders of a newborn baby. Now, Rape victims are a different matter. If anyone is worthy of that decision, it's them. But most of these are teenagers with no sense of shame. Now, if you excuse me, i must be up to bed! Gooday to you, Silver, and let us hope that this MADNESS is stopped before even more innnocent lives are wasted.

__________________
"I bet one legend that keeps reoccurring throughout history, in every culture, is the story of Popeye."



Do you honestly think that if George Bush had been aborted as a fetus that someone else wouldn't be leading America now? Honestly and truly. You are assuming that everything has been made in advance, all out paths are already chosen or something crazy like that. Gracie, a person is not born with the cure for cancer or the ability to find it. A person can be raised up in the correct manner to discover the cure for cancer or to be the president, but on the other hand they may be brought up to be a drop kick - the argument that a fetus might be the one who is supposed to find the cure for cancer is ridiculous! It is like saying that we shouldn't go to war because we might kill someone who in forty years time is destined to write the greatest novel ever written and that we would be devoiding the world of a great book.

We can't kill these people because the might just do something with their life. I would laugh if they grow up to become mass murders or serial rapists. When you put it like that it doesn't seem such a great idea does it? You can't base the abortion debate on who or what they may become; that is ridiculous. And there are two sides to that coin too.
__________________
www.esotericrabbit.com



A novel adaptation.
Gracie, as much as I'd hate to argue with you....


I really do have to dissagree with your last couple of statements, so I'll take 'em using the NIFTY ARGUMENT SYSTEM (See conservation of space)

If they would give the mother time to see that baby, she wouldn't be able to give he/she back to the doctor. No freaking way. No one is that heartless. Imagine a newborn baby, ready for the world and it's family, and then they "dispose" of he/she
This is either
A. Assuming that they wait until the baby has been born to "Terminate" it. Which is false.
or
B. That babies are as capable of rational thought and feeling while in the womb, as they are outside the womb. Which would bring up the whole "When is the baby really considered alive" argument. The main point, or at least pro-choice point, being the time difference. It takes only 8 weeks for a baby to begin sending brain waves, and they are in there for 9 months. Third trimester abortions are illegal, so think of the massive amount of developing between the 9 months it take to be born, and the 6 months in which it could legally be aborted. That's a whole lot of change, espescially considering the amount of brain power required for realistic self-awareness. These things are barely alive during the first trimester (when they are most commonly aborted) so this all depends on your definiton of life.


And what if he grows up to be someone who talks people out of suicide, or stop them from doing drugs? What if he grows up to stop people form killing themselves, or others, or both? And if people don't want a baby, they don't have to have one.
This is the only part off your argument where I can see the reigious influences (don't worry, I'm not so far leftist as to contest your views simply because of that). This is all based out of the idea that fate controls us, and that our destinies are pre-set. Consider this though, if all of the babies lives were predetermined, then the abortion would have been predetermined, also.


It's called "Adoption"! MAYBE YOU'VE HEARD OF IT!!! They don't need to kill innocent lives.
It's terribly unfortunate that the adoption system has become the huge, lumbering innefective beast that it has. I assure you, that if we had a better system for this sort of thing, I would be so very pro-life. As it is, orphans live pretty poorly. Come election year, we need to consider this more, as opposed to throwing someone in office who considers orphans "good eatin' ". I'm kidding, but foster homes really do need better funding, at least before I'lll view this as a viable option.

Originally posted by LordSllaytan

Personally, I wish we could steralize a lot of the crack whores giving birth to future criminals. Also for the stupid girls, that sleep with every swinging d!ck, and has abortions because a rubber might not make the guy happy. I'm also tired of seeing west coast immigrants, by the hundreds, having 5 children under seven, and pregnant with the next. While I pay my taxes that pays for their welfare. Oops, maybe I went to far.
When you read 1984, you kind of sided with Big Brother , didn't you?
I'm kidding, but seriously, unless you're the one determining this sort of thing, don't be surprised when they come to sterilize most of us. I do agree that these people aren't fit to raise, but I'm not sure that's the solution, at least not until I'm the Totalitarian dictator of this here continent, then we'll talk.


I'm pretty much sitting in the middle of this issue, as both sides have some pretty ridiculous arguments, but for now, I guess I'm leaning towards Pro-Choice.
__________________
"We are all worms, but I do believe I am a glow-worm."
--Winston Churchill



Originally posted by Herodotus
When you read 1984, you kind of sided with Big Brother , didn't you?
I'm kidding, but seriously, unless you're the one determining this sort of thing, don't be surprised when they come to sterilize most of us. I do agree that these people aren't fit to raise, but I'm not sure that's the solution, at least not until I'm the Totalitarian dictator of this here continent, then we'll talk.
I know it's not a solution Hero, that's why I didn't say it would be a good idea. It's more a statement of anger and resentment about the innefectuality of a system that doesn't seem to even try to be part of a solution. It's a statement that cannot be taken seriously on its own merit, but can portray my feelings of helplessness.
__________________
"Today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."



Originally posted by LordSlaytan
My main reasoning for being pro-choice is that it's none of my business. I can't get pregnant, so what right do I have to impose my will?
This is about how I feel about it. As Chris Rock says, "I wouldn't want a bunch of women telling me what to do with my balls."
__________________
**** the Lakers!



Originally posted by Steve
This is about how I feel about it. As Chris Rock says, "I wouldn't want a bunch of women telling me what to do with my balls."
If my balls had their own brainwaves and beating heart, they'd have every right to tell me what to do with them.

I find it incredibly amusing that "it's none of my business" is the answer. After all, we wouldn't want them telling US what to do, right? Yet we don't mind them dictating things to the thing growing inside them.

The phrase "it's none of my business" completely side-steps the issue. If it's human life, it is everyone's business, and everyone should speak out against it. By saying "it's none of my business," you are essentially ignoring the pertinent question of when life begins...and frankly, I must ask you, Steve: if you don't KNOW when life begins, why, exactly, do you consider it worth the risk?



A novel adaptation.
C'mon Chrissly, you can do better than that.
Well, actually, nothing is really wrong with your argument, and what you do write seems to be some of the more logical stuff in this thread. But I was really looking for one of your famous argument posts, pages of great stuff that I can try my best to pick apart simplyfor the sake of argument. So c'mon, to hell with brevity I say, consider this an invitation to really let loose, I'd like to read your opinions on the matter, all of them.



I am only me and therefore can only tell you what I feel is right. Way back when, when my wife was my girlfriend we agreed to have one. We were both young and dumb and my future looked pretty grim at that time. Now, 17 years later I'm still haunted by it, and I know my wife is too. We don't talk about it much... sometimes she'll say "wow, we could have a 17 year old now." I often wonder about it, who he or she would have been and how badly I've screwed up by making the choices I made.

To me, it's not right. I'm only qualified to make that choice for me, though. Just as I wouldn't dream of imposing any of my other beliefs on anyone else, I can't judge anyone on their beliefs with this issue.

My word of counsel is simply that it causes pain and regret. Well, it did in my case. If I could take one thing back.... just one....



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally posted by Yoda

That's circular, though. You say it's none of your business...and it's not...unless the baby really is a human. In which case it is everyone's business...because everyone should be concerned with murder. You can say it's none of your business, but that statement is contingent on the real question: when does life begin?
Well, you think it starts a whole lot earlier than us pro-choicers, so it's kind of hard to even discuss this issue with you since we don't even agree on that.

BTW; while I respect and admire women for having the ability (and strength) to have children, I do not think you need to have that ability yourself to have an opinion on abortion. If that were true, would you need to be related to a murder victim to have a stance on murder? Would you have to be stolen from to speak out against theft?
Murder and theft are crimes, abortion is not - even if you would want it to be. Sure, you can have an opinion; we all can have opinions. But in the end it's up to the women to decide. It sounds to me like you want to abolish abortions, and that's more than just having an opinion, I think.

The population is irrelevant. I think we all agree that whether it helps that problem or not, all that matters is the sanctity of life here. That's the issue. If they really are alive...if they really are HUMAN...what else could POSSIBLY matter to override their lives?
This kind of contradicts what you say later... Anyway. I believe there's a differance between a feetus and a human being. That's where we have fundamentally different views. To me human life is always sacred - a feetus is not. That might sound coldhearted, but that's how I feel about it.

You don't have to be religious to value human life.
I hear you.

Are you implying that if you cannot comprehend what is happening to you at the time, it's okay?
No, I'm saying that an abortion isn't the same as killing a child.

I explained why it is a slogan: because it's *not* an argument. When the issue is "is it her body or not?" saying "It's her body" is not an argument, it's 100% rhetorical. It has no substance, it is simply an unsupported opinion. It gets us nowhere and makes no reasonable argument in any direction.
What you are saying here is that the woman's right to decide over her own body is not a valid argument for the pro-choice side. I can't see why. I think it's one of the strongest arguments in this discussion. And ask any woman if she thinks it's an "unsupported opinion". You value the feetus higher than the woman. I do the opposite. It's as simple as that.

I think your problem is that you've entwined Pro-Lifers with the Pro-Life issue. It doesn't matter who is supporting the Pro-Life agenda...the agenda itself is what matters. Or, put another way: it's interesting that you feel the need to sling mud at "rightwing, fundamentally christian men" rather than the actual ISSUES and ARGUMENTS being presented. As a general rule: when you find yourself arguing with PEOPLE rather than the IDEAS they represent, you're grasping at straws.
When did I sling mud? I believe that the "live-by-the-book" mentality is more wide spread among the Pro-Lifers than among the Pro-Choicers, wouldn't you agree? (Probably not, but anyway...). Religion is an issue here, because a lot of Pro-LIfers use religion as an argument to support their cause. ("You will burn for this!!")

Why is it not important whether or not it is a human? Are you actually implying that something is more important in that situation than the life of a human infant?
Ok, it is important. I don't think it's a human. I think it's the beginning of a human.

People are going to do illegal things no matter what. We could clean up prostitution and perhaps the heroine market by legalizing those things, too. Would you support that?
I would not support those things, no. But I don't see what heroine has to do with abortion. You're constantly comparing abortion with crimes like murder, theft, prostitution and drug trafficing. I think that is totally irrelevant and to simplify a very complexed matter. I don't see the argument in that.

I don't know which of the above events is more tragic. I don't label and value human life like that. All I know is that we should go to any plausible length to protect it ALL. The life of one human (especially a defenseless infant) comes before the comfort or convienence of a teenager or adult who engaged in an act they knew MAY lead to a pregnancy. That's just common sense. The baby had no say, and at least deserves a right to life.
Have you had an abortion? Me neither. But I don't think it's very comfortable. I agree that young girls - and young boys too - should be careful and not use abortion in the same way as pills or condoms. But you have to consider what kind of life you're bringing the child into.

Our society forces views on other people all the time. It forces the view that we should not steal, murder, or rape. The fact that someone differs in opinion is irrelevant. You're not against forcing views on people...because obviously you support those laws. The argument there is moot.
To steal, murder or rape is against the law for obvious reasons. Abortion isn't against the law (at least not where I come from) for obvious reasons. I think standing outside clinics with offensive signs, shouting offensive words to pregnant women, killing doctors and so on is forcing one's view on other people. I don't think following laws is the same as accepting that behaviour.

I'm undecided. Part of me says rape would obviously be different...but another part of me says that it would just be MORE violence...a bad end to an already bad situation.
This also contradicts what you say later on and also what you've said before. Why isn't the life of an unborn child, created during a rape, equally valuable as the life of an unborn child, created during "normal" circumstances?

Another part of me wonders; if it's okay to abort an unwanted pregnancy due to rape, is it okay to kill that same child after its born for the same reason? If not, why not?
Yeah, exactly, why not? Since you think a feetus is the same as a newborn baby, for you there is no differance. But as before, it's here where we differ. Pregnancy due to rape is one of several reasons why a woman might not want to have the baby, and therefore should have the right to choose abortion.

If we have DNA evidence and the crime is severe enough, I support it. And no, there is no conflict here. On one hand you have what is clearly its own body...it has never committed a crime and so far has had no say in anything at all that has happened to it. On the other hand you have someone who went out and committed a horrible act that they can never take back.
And this is what I refer to when I said that you contradict yourself. Human life is not sacred to you. You said before that abortion perhaps isn't the solution to a pregnancy due to rape because "it would just be MORE violence...a bad end to an already bad situation". I think it's always wrong to kill. And that goes for the state as well. "It's wrong to kill. If you kill someone - we will kill you." I could go on forever about this, but the death penalty isn't the topic here...

Now, it's my turn:

#1 - Is human life highly valuable and sacred? Why or why not?


Yes, always valuable. There might be situations however (war, self defense, protection of your family etc.) when it isn't always sacred. Why? I can't really explain why. Your life is your given right as soon as you are born. Noone but you yourself has the right to decide what to do with it or take it from you.

#2 - Should the man have as much say in the abortion as a woman? Clearly a baby is a joint venture...so, what happens if the man wants the baby, but the woman does not?

He will have to convince her to keep it. If she won't keep it he will have to convince her to let him take custody of it. If they come to the situation where she won't even let him do that and, for her, abortion is the only option - he will unfortunately just have to accept it. This is however a purely hypothetic and also a pretty unrealistic example without much relevance.

#3 - Why does it being a human not matter to you? After all, if we're legally killing 1.3 million humans a year, isn't that something that should be fought?

I don't see abortions as killings of humans. I do however consider killings of innocent people as someting to fight, yes. I admit that me saying that wether it's human or not is not the issue was wrong. Even though I think abortions are tragic and sad, I didn't reflect on the issue wether it's a human or not since it's crystal clear for me that it's not.



Hey Pid, your argument isn't bad...but it would be better if you spelled feetus more better , with only one "e".;



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally posted by LordSlaytan
Hey Pid, your argument isn't bad...but it would be better if you spelled feetus more better , with only one "e".;
Oh, sorry. My native tongue not this is. Fetus from now on I will write.



Ok, it is important. I don't think it's a human. I think it's the beginning of a human.
Draw a line in the sand please. At what point does a fetus become 'human?' Since it requires humans to concieve another human I should think that this argument is academic.


I think it's always wrong to kill. And that goes for the state as well. "It's wrong to kill. If you kill someone - we will kill you." I could go on forever about this, but the death penalty isn't the topic here...
Yet you DO support abortion?

I want to get on my soap box for a moment if I may, thank you. The death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with abortion. The death penalty involves a heinous crime committed by an individual of his own free will. Said person deserves punishment (whether you believe it's death or life in prison). An abortion involves no criminal acts and is about terminating a life that has no means of defending itself.

Argue on, if you will, but the distinction needs to be drawn and understood.



Question: is it wrong for someone to believe it something based on gut instinct as opposed to factual arguments that support said beliefs?


Just wondering, in terms of any subject, not just abortion.



I myself am not logic driven. Most of my beliefs center around how I feel versus what I think. I'm an animal, Matt... completely unlike John Herdman "I am not an animal..."













I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally posted by Toose


Draw a line in the sand please. At what point does a fetus become 'human?' Since it requires humans to concieve another human I should think that this argument is academic.
What part of "I don't think it's human" didn't you understand? I don't have any clear opinion about when exactly the fetus turns to human. There is a limit for when you're not allowed to do an abortion any longer, and that limit is drawn where it's drawn for a reason I'm sure.

Yet you DO support abortion?
Eeeeh.. yes. Did you even read what I wrote in my respond to Yoda? If yes, maybe you should read it again so you don't have to ask for things I have allready responded to.

I want to get on my soap box for a moment if I may, thank you. The death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with abortion. The death penalty involves a heinous crime committed by an individual of his own free will. Said person deserves punishment (whether you believe it's death or life in prison). An abortion involves no criminal acts and is about terminating a life that has no means of defending itself.

Argue on, if you will, but the distinction needs to be drawn and understood.
I don't think it has anything to do with abortion either. I was just curious since I have a theory that Pro-Lifers often support death penalty. I wanted to see if Yoda did that too. I think criminals deserv punishment too, but death penalty is immoral and unethic. I do however agree with you on the fact that an abortion does not involve any criminal acts. Then at least I know you don't want to make abortions illegal, which is good. You are Pro-Choice in spirit. Good for you.