No More Bruce.....Say Hello to Caitlyn!

I wouldn't say it's a psychological change. It's a physical change to allow someone to be perceived as who they "feel" they are.

The fact that you insisted in an earlier post that he/she (I'm not going to play the pronoun game here, but I would call her a "she") "still is Bruce Jenner" (what's in a name, right?) makes it seem that you do have a problem with that, by the way.

well yeah she still has an XY chromosome, so from a biological standpoint she could be considered male, but does that really matter? i didn't realize we were such a chromosome-based society where that's all that matters when identifying gender. i don't think anyone here truly understands what caitlyn is going through, all we know is that she clearly feels 100% female, so why can't we respect that and call her by the right freaking pronoun at least? do you have a stronger allegiance to human biology than to human decency?

I can appreciate where you are coming from here Inmate. I had a conversation in a PM earlier about this. With an extreme topic like this we end up talking around the actual person and concentrating on the larger issue. It is unfortunate that is how these conversations get started but I don't think that makes the large issue irrelevant.

@Cob I am not ignoring your hypothetical but I am taking a moment to ponder how to answer properly. I think we miss the heart of a matter when we use extreme hypotheticals to prove a slippery slope.

The hypothesis is in no way intended to be the proof of anything. I used it as a medium to make people understand my view on what a gender identity crisis could be (or according to me actually is). I just wanted to know what people's stances on the issue would be if they considered that view as truth.

I explicitly said that I was willing to have the other discussion about "what's actually true" as well.

My question is... If I take a hamburger patty and put it in a hot dog bun, is it now a hot dog? This isn't relevant to the topic at hand, I'm just thinking about life at the Sonic Drive-in.

Like Rodent I didn't know who Bruce Jenner was but just read up a bit . I see people moaning on t'internet about how much she's spent on her appearance, but that's beside the point. We need people like her to raise the profile of transgendered people.

I remember when being gay was something to be whispered about and condemned. People lived whole lives in the past knowing they were gay and not being able to tell anyone or if they did risk facing criminal charges, and people still do around the world. If it wasn't for gay rights and prominent people declaring themselves to be gay we wouldn't live in this society where it's ok and most people aren't really that bothered. Give it another 20 years or so and it won't even be an issue at all with anyone.

I'm not connecting being gay with being transgendered by the way, just trying to illustrate that society comes to accept differences only when they're out in the open and nowadays one of the best ways of doing that is through the media. People going through similar issues can get comfort knowing that another can come through their problems even though Caitlyn has piles of money to make herself look a million dollars.

Virtually every other use of the word "assign" (that I can think of, at least) exists in circumstances where the assignment is at someone's discretion. Nobody says you were "assigned" a height, or a hair color, or a specific set of parents.

And if someone were questioning whether Jenner existed, this would be a fine response. The quote isn't "I think I am something, therefore I am that thing."

So the question remains: when and why does one take priority? I assume you would not call anyone anything they asked you to call them, or at least you would not say they are that thing simply because they said they were. So why is this situation different? I think this is a pretty fair, pretty simple question.

Isn't this circular, too? You say we can tell with psychiatric evaluation, but the mere fact of undergoing the evaluations presupposes that it can be reasonable to want this, which is the entire thing being questioned in the first place.

Probably not. But then, most cosmetic surgery is far more superficial and reversible. And I've never heard of someone being called a bigot for disapproving of breast implants. But since you brought it up: why not? If (not if, it's actually happened) someone says they're supposed to look like a plastic Barbie doll, can someone reasonably disapprove of the fact? Do you think people having negative opinions of plastic surgery indicates bigotry?

Okay, but the question was: why is one an illness, and not the other? Can you give me a simple rule applicable to human psychology that includes transgenderism but precludes body integrity identity disorder?

Of course, if this is an actual mental illness, then what you call "human decency" is just enabling. I know, I know, you don't think it is a mental illness--but that's the disagreement you have to grapple with. Not the psychologically comfortable fiction that people who disagree with you must lack decency.

Here's that transgender thread I knew was coming.

You know, the only thing that really bothers me about all this is that it reeks of a giant publicity grab. A lot of people transition, but they don't announce it to the heavens like "hey, pay attention to ME now!" I suppose that yeah, it being Bruce Jenner, the media was going to get involved, but it seems to me like she is turning this into yet another attempt to stay in the spotlight instead of the deeply personal matter it definitely is. If there's suddenly a reality show on cable TV, I'm going to be severely disappointed. "Coming out Caitlyn" is next, followed by "Paris Hilton's Celebrity Slut Kitchen" Only on E!

Ok, maybe I'd watch Celebrity Slut Kitchen just once.

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except what caitlyn is doing is genuinely beneficial to the transgender community, who have never had anywhere close to this level of exposure before and the generally positive reactions caitlyn has gotten will undoubtedly give countless gender confused people the confidence to do what they need to do to feel comfortable in their bodies. whatever her intentions were, i'm glad this has gotten the attention it has. also just the fact that this is so unusual to a lot of people means it was inevitable that this would get a lot of media attention

Are we ever as a culture going to agree that there is a distinction to be made accepting someone as a person and accepting aspects of them that we disagree with, inate or otherwise.

There all kinds of people in my life, including here, who disagree with certain aspects of me as a person. Some of those things are inate, some are not. I don't take that as a condemnation of me as a person.

I think as adults we should be able to have adult conversations without always walking on egg shells.

So much racism in one thread, I can't believe it.

My thing is I don't believe that transgenderism is a birth defect. I don't think there's been any solid proof that it is, yet there's this whole agenda that's trying to push that issue as if it's truth. As if people who feel they're the wrong sex need to transition into the correct body, even if they're very young children. That is my problem with the whole thing. I see this whole Bruce Jenner thing, as well as when Chastity Bono went through the transition, as just more fuel that's trying to push this issue and make it seem legit.

I'm not convinced. I don't think the science is really there to prove it yet and based on my experiences with transgendered people, I'm not convinced it's real. I am open to the idea that it's real, but I'm very skeptical.

There might be some genuine cases where the body has truly affected the mind in a way to believe it's the wrong sex, but I worry that so many people have simply convinced themselves, for some reason, that they're the wrong sex, when it's just not true.

We don't pick the bodies we're given... but we could choose to act either male or female. We might be more drawn to the lifestyle of the opposite sex that we are... but I'm not convinced this means there's a physical problem that is the cause. I think it's probably all a psychological thing. Frankly, I think the mind and psychology haven't been fully mapped out and studied and I think most, if not all, transgendered people, have convinced themselves that they're the wrong sex and cannot easily mentally make the switch that they're fine. That they don't need to have surgery and all that.

If people want to have a sex change, I think that should be their right. But I think it's an elective surgery. Until there has been groundbreaking, solid proof that transgenderism is this real thing, I'm not for it as being something that should be offered to be paid for easily as a life threatening emergency surgery -- all thanks to hysterical stories about the many supposed suicides of transgendered people, who may have other life issues causing their problems, such as society disapproving of their actions.

I hate that transgendered people even get linked with gay people, although I can understand why. But now I really hate it because the transgender movement has really progressed and frankly -- I'm not one of those people. Even if being transgendered turns out to be a biological problem, I hate how transgendered people get grouped with us -- LGBT -- because there's a difference between being attracted to your own sex, and being a person who believes they're in the wrong body. I hate the term "LGBT" now -- and all the other crazy additions it's recently acquired that I don't even know all the names for.

I used to be all for transgender issues in the past, but now... I'm skeptical. And before, I used to just kinda accept every single form of propaganda the "LGBT" community would shove down our throats -- which I think they are still shoving down the throats of the masses -- but not anymore. I think more for myself now and I think the transgender movement is probably wrong.

Racism? In what way?

That really doesn't seem to be as main stream as you and slob think.

I just skimmed this thread. I seen some accusations of 'bigotry' and 'haters' and that bothers me. I didn't read one post that was hateful against Jenner. If Jenner wants to do this, that's Jenner's business and I wish Caitlyn well.

However if we as much as raise an eyebrow at this unusual news story, the 'PC police' start labeling us as politically incorrect, or worse, we're called haters or bigots.

It's normal for people to have different reactions to Jenner's operation and the day we all have to give cookie cutter responses or risk offending someone, is the day we lose freedom of speech.

First of all, Hello 90sAce.

Second, I hate when they're all too quick to label people as "transphobic." I'm sure I would be called transphobic for my views, even though I'm not scared of transgendered people at all. I even like stuff dealing with transgendered people -- The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert has a transgendered person and she's my favorite character in it.

I'm just going to say I am sick of hearing about Bruce, Caitlyn or who ever. Not because of the trans thing, but because of his connection to the Kardashins.

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