President Trump

Can someone summerise what the GOAT has done now?

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I daresay there's some space between "eh, it could be worse" and "he's a traitor being blackmailed by Putin."

It really isn't. There's literally nothing stopping people from explaining why something is bad, and noting how it could presage worse things, without acting like those things are already happening or confusing trajectory with reality.

If only there were some third option between underreacting and overreacting.

I daresay there's some space between "Trump messed up" and "it's actually the left's fault for not handling Trump better", yet here we are.

Except perhaps the people they're explaining it to.

Yeah, well, there's a reason I asked Steel what he considered to be an appropriate reaction under these circumstances and vague responses like "some space" and "third option between underreacting and overreacting" are not particularly helpful.

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Except he literally said the first thing, and not the second. And even if you think he sorta implied the second, he definitely said both, so I dunno what the "daresay there's some space" part means, unless it's just forcing a pithy rejoinder that the text doesn't actually accommodate.

Meaning what? Trump supporters being unreasonable is stopping liberals from leveling proportional criticism?

It didn't (and still doesn't) sound like a real question to me, particularly given that it was attached to a whole lot of preemptive defense about overreacting. I think the answer is obvious, anyway: not assuming he's a traitor when he does something bad, or evil when he does something stupid, etc.

I didn't literally say the second thing either. Anyway, commenting on the difference is meant to underline how quickly Steel's three-word concession that "Trump messed up" segues into a multi-paragraph post that's focused on finding faults in entities like the left and the media even though that sounds a bit more tangential than he'd like it to.

Sounds about right, yeah.

Perhaps I should have asked the question by itself. That being said, given his generally pro-Trump stance it's too easy to interpret his post as a complaint that the left made too much of a fuss about Trump-related stuff that he considered unimportant or perhaps even agreeable so that once he reached his own limit it was easier to blame the left than Trump himself.

Iro, your words reveal how you interpret things.
Most people see the reactions of the far left as overreactions because they're starting from a more objective interpretation of what people are reacting to that isn't loaded with bias that's waiting for a trigger to set it off... a different premise as it were.

For example; Trump never endorsed neo-Nazis: he said there were good people on both sides of the debate over the removal of statues (which long preceded the incidents at the protests in Charlottesville) - those included local people who did not belong to any Nazi groups or Antifa. And he went on to clarify that point, but much of the media does not repeat the entire context and only plays the quote that there were fine people on both sides (which makes it sound like he's talking about the Nazis & radicals that brought violence to the situation).

Trump is not running internment camps - the history of what happens to people caught entering the country illegally with children in tow is a long one. The Obama administration separated children from adults when they couldn't immediately identify if the adults were the children's parents as opposed to human traffickers. Since people entering illegally don't carry all their documentation with them, those separated from children were virtually all of them with children.

Trump has actually built bigger, cleaner and more well stocked facilities for children who need to be verified while the illegally trespassing adults they were with (who may be their parents or who may be human traffickers) are investigated and processed, whereas under Obama, the children who fell into this same category (in addition to tens of thousands of unaccompanied minors who's own parents separated them by sending them here alone) were kept in fenced in pens that resemble animal cages as was revealed in the photos that were first attributed to Trump, but then later revealed to be from Obama's tenure.

U.S. Presidents have been meeting with Russian leaders since the end of WWII.
FDR (the hero of the Democratic party and who did actually create internment camps for American citizens of Japanese decent) praised Stalin after WWII while handing half of Europe over to his Communist regime. The point is, at summits, Presidents don't go to debate on a world stage, or insult or make accusations even when crimes of the "enemy" are clear. At every summit, U.S. Presidents are nice to the wolf - if they weren't, then summits would cease.

Trump carried on the tradition - I'm not excusing his poor showing, inappropriate topics, bizarre oration style, verbal flubs or the optics he created, just saying that what he did do in no way warrants "treason" or "military coupes" that American politicians are now calling for in a deranged showing of completely unwarranted hysteria. I'd expect crazy people in the street to yell these things, but when our own politicians start overreacting with insane rhetoric that's a little scary because they could, at any time, turn that same insanity against any of us citizens.

You keep talking about the right time to "overreact" - well that time is never. OVERreaction is an inappropriate reaction (which is what we've seen from the left over everything Trump has said or done).

Sure, he's obviously a lot more enthusiastic about that. But the point is that he didn't respond to one extreme by offering another, which is what you're suggesting by shoehorning some turnabout-is-fair-play phrasing into the response. He said both were true.

Sounds terrible. Nobody has the ability to make us unreasonable, and their behavior doesn't absolve us of it when we are.

Well, he said in the very first sentence that it wasn't "agreeable," so I don't think there should be much confusion on that point.

As I kept saying to my conservative friends during the election: embrace the "and." You can dislike Trump and Hillary, or Trump and Democrats. Similarly, you can dislike Trump and recognize that everything he does is met with almost reflexive hysteria. And, more importantly, that this hysteria almost always backfires.

Anyway, I took your question to be rhetorical, but if you meant it honestly, fair enough.

I'll try that whole "and" thing:

I dislike the left and Trump!

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Sorry, if you're trying to suggest you're not biased, you are making me laugh.

As for the whole argument about overreacting vs. underreacting, let's be clear. Just because someone thinks a "reaction" is overreacting, doesn't make it so. I think it's perfectly reasonable to be outraged by: Trump alienating and attacking our allies, engaging in harmful trade wars, and standing on the world stage with Putin and taking Putin's side over America. And that's just in the last week or so. And that doesn't include this administration taking several days to think over Putin's request to send him our formal ambassador to Moscow, something that should have been rejected in no uncertain terms right at the start. Nor does this count the continuing attacks on our free press, the never-ending flow of lies, or what might have gone on during this private meeting with Putin, what deals were discussed or what secrets were revealed. Nor does it count the larger context, such as the Russia investigation, or the fact this president is just completely incompetent and out of his depth. Yes, outrage is a perfectly legitimate response. And that's just over events of the last week, week and a half. We've had a year and a half of this, more if you count the election campaign.

I think Yoda said he prefers to go with the idea this president is just incompetent, rather than some sort of treasonous mastermind, but let's face it, you can be both. Many criminals are. I don't know what Trump has or hasn't done with regards to cooperating with Russia, but what I saw at the podium with Trump standing next to Putin was him act as a traitor to our country. That's what I saw with my own eyes and my own judgment. And yeah, I'm biased. I'm biased as a citizen of the United States who loves his country and is tired of seeing this buffoon crapping on it.

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I may go back to hating you. It was more fun.

I guess at this point we need to ask what people think "traitor" means. It really feels like it's just being used for emphasis, because people have run out of words to express their disgust and need to find one that still has some kind of impact.

Trump, the first nationalist traitor ever. The left can't decide what this guy is. The only thing they know is every time he speaks it must be impeachable somehow. I can't stand this president but pretty sure the left rhetoric bothers me even more. Trump has definitely pushed the middle left way to the left. Unfortunately the opposite is true as well. Most people are so entrenched in their political dogma now we have little chance of getting a pragmatist elected. #exhausted

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Letterboxd

Hating Trump doesn't mean anything is moving left.

Compare how the left was talking about foreign affairs and immigration a couple years ago to how they are today. No doubt the party has moved way farther left in response to Trump. Don't pop pop it man you may get your socialist president yet. Then free Kit-kats for everyone.

I understand you. It's obvious for anybody who has seen that broadcast from Helsinki, that Trump was not acting in the interest of the country. Or maybe he did - but that would mean that Russia is stronger and we don't want to believe that. Especially after i've read an article about the russian rich people who buy property in US, Germany and all over Europe to achieve the citizenship:
"The total amount of money sent abroad by Russian nationals in 2017 was $31.3 billion, which exceeds the 2016 figure ($24.8 billion) by 26%. The most popular destinations to send funds were Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Latvia and the United States."
from here https://tranio.com/articles/russian-...-usd1-billion/
I can not believe that rich people would run from the strong country tho. Usually they run to the rich country - in this case - to US.

It also doesn't mean anything isn't moving left. These are just sort of hollow statements with little meaning, way too broad and amorphous to be indicative of any specific argument.

There has clearly been a shift to the far left by a portion of society, and anyone that denies it just isn't paying attention. The rise in popularity of groups like Antifa, the success (albeit on a small scale) of candidates like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, an unabashed socialist, and the shifts in stance and doubling down on issues like immigration, restriction of speech, and the dead end of identity politics. I see this in the world at large, and also within the circles of folks that I know.

As someone that used to DJ in the rave scene in the late 90s and early 2000s, all the while being a staunch libertarian (albeit left-leaning at the time), I recall open and constructive political discussions between people of all stripes from all coordinates on the political compass. From most of the people that were considered far left at that point in time, I recall a string defense of classic American liberal values, such as freedom of speech, freedom of expression, and a stance of tolerance and attempted understanding, even if they strongly disagreed. I remember ZERO instances, over many years, of people attempting to silence or intimidate.

These days, from many of the same people, who have now grown bitter and aggressive, I see disrespect, derision, outright attacks and attempts to silence, and a level of intolerance for even slight deviation from their perceived concepts of what is socially and politically acceptable. A few of the worst examples include calls for physical violence against those they disagree with. Politically, many of these people call for the destruction of the US Constitution, aggressive, oppressive action against those they disagree with, or outright violent revolution. There has been a clear and present shift farther to the left, with many embracing socialist/communist ideology, coupled with an openly aggressive stance towards those they disagree with.

Personally, I still consider myself to be fairly moderate, but I have more and more trouble embracing some libertarian ideals, and consider myself sort of firmly entrenched in the center-right. I believe in borders, I think some taxation is necessary, I I won't watch the country and culture I grew up in self-detonate in efforts of forced diversity and hazy morality. That said, there is plenty of the right that I can't get on board with, as well, so I don't see myself embracing the GOP anytime soon. I also strongly dislike President Trump, even if I think he has done a few good things for the country during his term.

In summary, many people have been pushed farther left, with a decent portion of moderates sliding the other direction, as well.

That's it for now.

Neither have good track records to be honest.

This is what I've been saying. Firing missiles at another country's military installations on literally no evidence of wrongdoing is easily the most damning thing he's ever done; that's committing an act of war with no legitimate provocation.

What happens to this news? Oh, it gets swept under the rug in favor of a continued conspiracy theory involving Russia "hacking our election". I've literally seen people wearing T-SHIRTS which reference this total farce, a farce which dissolves into jack-**** the second you realize a data leak is not the same thing as a hack, the DNC is not an election, and that the only tie to Russia is an entirely separate event (and don't get me started on the "Muslim Ban"). People are spreading this complete bull**** around while Trump openly attacks another country multiple times despite his campaign promises against interventionism.

And I get called a Trump Apologist. Constantly. It is ****ing disgusting.

You do know America can be wrong, don't you? It elected Trump after all.

Which is more than the US deserves.

This again? Our elections have always been interfered with. It's called the Electoral College. If it wasn't there, Hillary would be president. Or are you only now concerned that democracy is being subverted because Trump's involved?

Citation.

You're really stretching to reach "they interfered with the election" when you have to resort to "they copied my homework". I'm sorry, are you implying that Democrats didn't win because someone saw their secret plans? Why in the hell doesn't it occur to you to question why analytics should be critical to an election? It's almost as if America isn't a democracy and that elections are more about gaming the system than acquiring actual support!

"Educate yourself, ****lord" is not evidence.

What possible circumstances could justify the reactions we've seen?

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"Well, at least your intentions behind the UTTERLY DEVASTATING FAULTS IN YOUR LOGIC are good." - Captain Steel

and yet I'm the one who's overreacting

There's a lot of sense in this.

But just ask yourself how much of a disgraceful leader someone has to be, in order to "push the middle left way to the left.". That takes some doing. And I include myself in the group of people who have been pushed from the middle left to the left, such is my strength of feeling for this disgusting human being that is currently the President of the USA.

I think labeling someone a disgusting human being so easily is troubling. I haven't been following this thread, but I certainly see a whole lot on the news that is way overblown, and that's not just with Trump.

And you have every right to put forward your opinions.

Just as I have every right to put forward mine