Has the world gone mad?

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Homosexual rights, feminists and other liberal groups protest anti-Sharia law rallies, a religious code that criminalizes the former in many Muslim countries and even imposes capital punishment on them in some while also mandating patriarchal societies in which females are viewed as property of their fathers and then husbands and approves of "honor killings," while Christian evangelicals accept as their paladin a twice divorced, philandering, potty-mouthed, ruthless NYC businessman.

As the pre-repentant Ebenezer Scrooge so succinctly put it: “I shall retire to Bedlam.”



Yes, except for the "gone" part.

People are broken. They always have been. It is a tremendous amount of work to be good even part of the time, for everyone, even when they're trying...and not everyone really tries. And the better you are, the more you understand how far from good you are, which means the best people are often most at risk of becoming despondent.

"When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the evil that is still left in him. When a man is getting worse he understands his own badness less and less. A moderately bad man knows he is not very good: a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right."
-- C.S. Lewis



Yes, except for the "gone" part.

People are broken. They always have been. It is a tremendous amount of work to be good even part of the time, for everyone, even when they're trying...and not everyone really tries. And the better you are, the more you understand how far from good you are, which means the best people are often most at risk of becoming despondent.

"When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the evil that is still left in him. When a man is getting worse he understands his own badness less and less. A moderately bad man knows he is not very good: a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right."
-- C.S. Lewis
Wow, great post, Chris! The quote from Lewis, which I hadn't been familiar with, is truly profound and insightful. Thanks.



Lots more where that came from. You can't read Lewis for 10 minutes without stumbling across some eminently quotable, perfectly distilled idea, and most of them have a downright prescient applicability to what's happening today.



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"It gets easier every day. But that means you have to do it every day."



Lots more where that came from. You can't read Lewis for 10 minutes without stumbling across some eminently quotable, perfectly distilled idea, and most of them have a downright prescient applicability to what's happening today.
Yes, greatly influenced byTolkien, he was a sympathizer with my religion back in a day when it actually stood for something before sophistry and “pragmatism” replaced true conviction. ("The Bible is the inerrant word of God...except when we don't like what it says.") He came close to converting, but unfortunately held off. He was indeed a great and insightful man.



Welcome to the human race...
Homosexual rights, feminists and other liberal groups protest anti-Sharia law rallies, a religious code that criminalizes the former in many Muslim countries and even imposes capital punishment on them in some while also mandating patriarchal societies in which females are viewed as property of their fathers and then husbands and approves of "honor killings,"
I think that's because the people who are most vocal in their opposition to Sharia law also happen to skew ideologically towards the kind of ultra-conservative viewpoints that would exclude groups like homosexuals or feminists anyway. I've touched on this in other threads, but treating Sharia law as an evil that must be avoided at all costs has the potential to be twisted in order to permit anything that could possibly "stop" Sharia law, even if it infringes on the individual rights of others - including those who would have been punished under Sharia law in the first place. That's without getting into how focusing all the attention on the potential threat of Sharia law or whatever means that occurrences of Western extremism and/or religious fanaticism get overlooked because they're not quite as bad as what happens (or would happen) under Sharia law.

That's why these liberal groups would oppose anti-Sharia protests - because just being against Sharia by itself is not good enough. Since the anti-Sharia groups would be more immediately concerned with opposing Muslims who are either living in America or attempting to enter the country after fleeing from Sharia countries, one can understandably question where the fear for one's personal safety ends and the excuse for openly practising anti-Muslim bigotry begins. As noted earlier, there's always the concern about whether or not these anti-Sharia groups really do have these other groups' safety in mind or if these liberal groups could also be targets. If we're going to be throwing quotes around, have you heard of the poem that goes "First they came"? One can't always assume that one will be safe even if they are not immediately being targeted.

while Christian evangelicals accept as their paladin a twice divorced, philandering, potty-mouthed, ruthless NYC businessman.
Yeah, that's just a symptom of how messy Christian fundamentalism and its intersection with politics can be. Christ's actions and teachings don't come across as inherently conservative, yet there are so many conservative Christians for some reason.
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My mum says' the world hasn't gone mad, it's some of the people in it'. ( she's a retired solicitor and has dealt with some really awful people).



Yes, except for the "gone" part.

People are broken. They always have been. It is a tremendous amount of work to be good even part of the time, for everyone, even when they're trying...and not everyone really tries. And the better you are, the more you understand how far from good you are, which means the best people are often most at risk of becoming despondent.

"When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the evil that is still left in him. When a man is getting worse he understands his own badness less and less. A moderately bad man knows he is not very good: a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right."
-- C.S. Lewis
Hmm unless I'm not understanding you fully, I kinda disagree. Without getting into debate, if what you're saying is true I'm a really bad person. But I don't think I am. Being calm, good-natured and kind never feels like an effort, while being "bad" feels like a great struggle. Positivity feels more at my core than negativity.

Not setting myself up like I'm any sort of quality person, I make probably more mistakes than most people and am a clumsy fool, but being good has never felt like it takes a "tremendous amount of work" like you suggest.



I'd definitely make a big distinction between positivity and goodness. And I think maybe Lewis is talking about how good we are in an objective sense, whereas perhaps you're grading yourself more on a curve (hence "...than most people").

I do think it's always true, though, that knowing ourselves is difficult, and our worst flaws are often the ones we're barely even aware of. It's easy to notice what comes easy, but I think maybe the harder things don't even always register as things, if they seem implausible and get filed under "well, nobody does that all the time," which we all use to absolve ourselves.



I'd definitely make a big distinction between positivity and goodness. And I think maybe Lewis is talking about how good we are in an objective sense, whereas perhaps you're grading yourself more on a curve (hence "...than most people").

I do think it's always true, though, that knowing ourselves is difficult, and our worst flaws are often the ones we're barely even aware of. It's easy to notice what comes easy, but I think maybe the harder things don't even always register as things, if they seem implausible and get filed under "well, [i]nobody[/b] does that all the time," which we all use to absolve ourselves.
I think our underlying worldviews definitely influence what we are talking about, and in that regard we'll never resolve this (like these things ever get resolved, right? ).

That second paragraph definitely does resonate with me, though. It's not just difficult, it's straight-up impossible to really understand ourselves. And with that in mind, it's even MORE impossible (if that's even... possible...) to understand other people, in my opinion. I was talking to my friend about this yesterday. I don't think it's good to make assumptions about other people, on pretty much any level. Just because someone feels a certain way about something doesn't make that feeling universal.

But who knows.

It's nebulous.

(Seanc if you don't rep me after that I'll fight you!)



I think that's because the people who are most vocal in their opposition to Sharia law also happen to skew ideologically towards the kind of ultra-conservative viewpoints that would exclude groups like homosexuals or feminists anyway. I've touched on this in other threads, but treating Sharia law as an evil that must be avoided at all costs has the potential to be twisted in order to permit anything that could possibly "stop" Sharia law, even if it infringes on the individual rights of others - including those who would have been punished under Sharia law in the first place. That's without getting into how focusing all the attention on the potential threat of Sharia law or whatever means that occurrences of Western extremism and/or religious fanaticism get overlooked because they're not quite as bad as what happens (or would happen) under Sharia law.

That's why these liberal groups would oppose anti-Sharia protests - because just being against Sharia by itself is not good enough. Since the anti-Sharia groups would be more immediately concerned with opposing Muslims who are either living in America or attempting to enter the country after fleeing from Sharia countries, one can understandably question where the fear for one's personal safety ends and the excuse for openly practising anti-Muslim bigotry begins. As noted earlier, there's always the concern about whether or not these anti-Sharia groups really do have these other groups' safety in mind or if these liberal groups could also be targets. If we're going to be throwing quotes around, have you heard of the poem that goes "First they came"? One can't always assume that one will be safe even if they are not immediately being targeted.

Yeah, that's just a symptom of how messy Christian fundamentalism and its intersection with politics can be. Christ's actions and teachings don't come across as inherently conservative, yet there are so many conservative Christians for some reason.
That was a thoughtful post. By your remarks of and in themselves, I cannot discern what you personal opinions are as you seemingly write analyzing the views of the two disparate parties my OP references and their respective seemingly illogical—indeed, one might say bizarre—political behavior. Therefore, I shall address only your analysis and not your personal views.

Regarding gay and feminist groups, you are basically asserting on their behalf: “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” argument, an alliance of convenience. However, when one’s newfound “friend” holds to views so inherently antithetical to one’s own, then such a stratagem is suspect. Comparing how women and homosexuals were treated in the West fifty years ago to how they are treated in many Muslims countries today, if hypothetically forced to choose it is difficult to believe that in one’s heart one wouldn’t choose the lesser of two evils and accept reverting to the former case. Allying with people who want (in some cases) to stone one’s self to death or forbid one to drive a car because such might “damage one’s ovaries” for the seeming sake of expediency seems absurd to the point of insanity.

As opposed to your stated analysis, I think I could make a better case for rationalizing away the evangelical Christian embrace of Trump. After all, they understand his history of far less than exemplary behavior. However, Christians love converts, don’t you know. Yes, he’s late to the game, but there is Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son, after all. He appears now to be in a stable marriage to a woman with an unblemished personal history with whom he has an eleven-year-old, clean-cut son. He’s now pro-life and embraces other social positions compatible with their moral views. Although his past can never be forgotten, it can be forgiven. After all, that’s what true Christians do.



In my country ( India ) communists who are complete atheists take the support of rabid Muslim fundamentalists because both are opposed to Hindu nationalists. It is definitely about 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' .



Has the world gone mad?

Mad? who knows. But it's certainly full of hate. Hate for those who are different. Hate for those who have different beliefs than our own. When people get over the hate and stop feeding it, they won't be consumed by it, then the world won't seem mad at all.



I'm not old, you're just 12.

As opposed to your stated analysis, I think I could make a better case for rationalizing away the evangelical Christian embrace of Trump. After all, they understand his history of far less than exemplary behavior. However, Christians love converts, don’t you know. Yes, he’s late to the game, but there is Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son, after all. He appears now to be in a stable marriage to a woman with an unblemished personal history with whom he has an eleven-year-old, clean-cut son. He’s now pro-life and embraces other social positions compatible with their moral views. Although his past can never be forgotten, it can be forgiven. After all, that’s what true Christians do.
I actually don't believe that Trump is a convert. It's a front to win over the Christian voters, especially the Evangelicals. Trump isn't even really a conservative, going by my understanding of the definition, but he plays one on television.
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Originally Posted by Don Schneider

As opposed to your stated analysis, I think I could make a better case for rationalizing away the evangelical Christian embrace of Trump. After all, they understand his history of far less than exemplary behavior. However, Christians love converts, don’t you know. Yes, he’s late to the game, but there is Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son, after all. He appears now to be in a stable marriage to a woman with an unblemished personal history with whom he has an eleven-year-old, clean-cut son. He’s now pro-life and embraces other social positions compatible with their moral views. Although his past can never be forgotten, it can be forgiven. After all, that’s what true Christians do.
Regarding Trump as a recent pillar of Christian values... be wary of False Profits.



Has the world gone mad?

Mad? who knows. But it's certainly full of hate. Hate for those who are different. Hate for those who have different beliefs than our own. When people get over the hate and stop feeding it, they won't be consumed by it, then the world won't seem mad at all.
I actually don't agree with you though, views certainly have changed (in the West at least) in the last 100 years. We are much more tolerant towards others from different cultures and different religions and whose sexuality doesn't conform to the majority. I believe Ireland has just elected an acknowledged gay man as Prime Minister (Ireland: a predominantly Roman Catholic country); Luxembourg already has one; a black man was elected President of the US; London has a Muslim mayor and I'm sure there are many other examples.

Could you see any of this happening even 60 years ago?