The MoFo Movie Club Discussion - Death Proof

Great discussion so far!
I've always like QT as a person from what we see of him in interviews, he loves films and that can only be good. so I tend to give him more leeway when I watch his films. I do like Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction, but not as much as I used to do. Like Tac, I think Jackie Brown is his best film, it's mature and the choice of Pam Grier and Robert Forster was inspired.

Back to the subject, I watched Grindhouse in its original format and enjoyed Planet Terror much more than Death Proof but together with the fake ads and all, they were alright y'know - you could just about go along with the atmosphere if you were in the right mood (and had a couple of drinks)...but watching Death Proof again on its own jeez it felt like an ordeal. I'll never be watching it again that's fer sure.
Those grindhouse films were trashy the first time around so why remake one ? At least Kill Bill was a homage to wonderful films like Lady Snowblood, at least he brought some of his own ideas to Kill Bill which made an enjoyable film imo. Making a homage to trashy films by making a trashy film with no discernable new ideas has just made a film that's quite, well, boring .

Just by saying "it's supposed to be like that , don't you get it? " like a few of my sons friends have said to me , isn't the point is it? or wouldn't it have done better at the box office given QT's fanbase?

I'm actually half-wanting to see Planet Terror now. The Mariachi films aside, I've never been much of a fan of Rodriguez although, like QT, he comes across as a great guy in interviews...

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First off, aside from the obnoxiously pathetic Four Rooms, I find Jackie Brown to be his weakest film. I enjoy it quite a bit, but the entire last half hour is clumsy and unbelievable beyond belief (even for Tarantino).

I did see Grindhouse on a VERY BIG screen. It was wonderful. My fave parts were probably the two opening scenes: the coming attraction to Machete and the opening credits of Planet Terror which were almost TOO sexy to watch in public. I believe that Planet Terror is certainly the better of the two movies, but c'mon now; how can anyone give Death Proof ? If Beat Takeshi was in the movie (not directing even), I bet it would go up. If the exact same film was directed by Kitano, I bet it would go up even more. (I realize I have nothing to say about this, with my obvious predilections for certain directors.)

As far as Death Proof goes, the DVD version is much weaker than the theatrical one. They added about 15 minutes, yet still diluted some of the mystery. Tarantino still screwed up the most important thing he had to express: what happened to gorgeous "cheerleader" Lee (Mary Elizabeth Winstead) at the end? It was open to an awesome Deliverance spoof or satire, but it was left high and dry, along with the women returning the Vanishing Point car in less-than-pristine condition. To me, that's the major flaw with the film.



Personally, I thought Kurt Russell was incredible. He was mind-boggling in the first half of the film. He truly gave an Award-worthy performance; at least if you care about genre flicks. The thing I find so interesting about the film is that the Kurt Russell in the second half seems to be an entirely different character. Instead of being a cool, worldly-wise killer, he seems like a cry-baby way over his head. Does anybody else believe that Stuntman Mike might be two totally different characters, slapped together using the same actor, to make some cheap-ass "Asian-type" B-movie feature? I'm probably giving Tarantino way too much credit. Even so, I find quite a few thrills embedded in the film.

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Enough of the low blows, sunshine. If you'd bothered to read any of my posts other than the rating you'll realise that I'm not a Tarantino hater by any means.

I don't know how much can be said about this film and I certainly don't feel like getting into any sort of arguments. It's silly to think anyone can change anyone else's mind about this so I'll be brief; I like Tarantino, I like him for all the reasons the majority of the haters in this thread hate him. I love his dialogs, I love the soundtracks, I love his style. I thought Jacky Brown was his weakest film, and Pulp fiction will probably always remain one of my all time favorites. As far as I'm concerned he hasn't made a bad film yet.

As for Death Proof, I thought it was hilarious, cool, and entertaining, brilliant spoof/homage on trashy horror/exploitation films. People get that and still hate it, so what can I tell ya, don't watch Tarantino if you don't like his idiosyncrasies...It's like people complaining about the shaky cam in Cloverfield when by all reasoning they should've known about it beforehand. People love Tarantino for what he is, the ultimate pop-director of the past 20 years, the godfather of cool for the MTV generation. If you don't get that, you're probably a geezer...

That is all, have a good day...

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That's funny because I got the impression you weren't much of a fan either.
I don't think you have any reason to be hostile here, especially since every post you've made in this thread is rather condescending towards anyone who might feel otherwise.

By the by, most people don't have your enyclopedic knowledge of music, but I'm betting now even you knew all the songs featured in the film...

Being 'not much of a fan' doesn't equal hater, does it?

I think I've made it pretty clear that I'd love to see QT step outside what I perceive to be his comfort zone and challenge himself. If that also challenges his core audience then all the better.

See where I'm coming from?

Not really, it's kinda hypocritical to tell you the truth. I think Mark made a fine parallel. Kitano isn't exactly a universally liked director, yet he's one of your favorites. I'm sure there are plenty of things you could say about his films and the peculiar style, not to mention the reoccurring themes (while I haven't seen his latest, it seems to be accused of the very same smugness and self-referentiality you accuse Tarantino of). I think it would be rather daft for anyone to imply he should start making something less "Kitano"...if you get my meaning...

Also, as a part of his core audience, I can say that he doesn't represent the entire scope of my cinematic experience so I'm perfectly able to "challenge" myself with other films and directors, ones that speak to me in many other ways. Tarantino will probably never make a film that will move me as a Mike Leigh film, but that's not what I expect anyway...

Nope, I don't think it's anywhere near hypocritical. I don't really want to use this thread to talk about another director but you started it.

One thing you could not accuse Kitano of is being formulaic - look at the types of films he's made in the past decade, for example. Yeah, some of them have been less than successful but at least he'd addressed some kind of worry that was nagging away at him - he didn't just want to be seen by the masses as a director of violent gun dramas. If he drops the ball (Getting Any?, Brother and most of Takeshis') I'll be the first to say so.

Because I expect better.

That's a fair point but I'd say that you have an enviably broad cinematic knowledge. Would you really say that you're representative of the typical Tarantino fan? That's a sweeping generalisation, I know, but I'm only using it to make a point.

Yep QT's not Mike Leigh and I wouldn't like it if he tried to be but extending yourself doesn't mean trying to ape someone else's style (and we'll leave the more general criticism of Tarantino outside, it's not relevant to this particular point). It means pushing your own personal boundaries and refining your own style. I saw nothing but backward steps in this film.

And ok, a film like Death Proof is probably not the best way to judge where Tarantino is now given the homage it attempts to pay but we've had such slim pickings over the years how else are we supposed to reach a conclusion?

He's one of the most important filmmakers of this generation, I've got no problem saying that and believing that. I'm just not gonna accept every missed step and lap it up because people say "It's supposed to be like that".

I saw nothing in Death Proof worthy of merit, absolutely nothing. To answer Mark - 1 star? I totally stand by that and I know you're a good enough guy not to take offence when I didn't see what you did.

Opinions are like armpits - everyone has them and some smell. Whether I've forgotten my deodorant this time is up to you...

If I've tried to argue my point rather too flamboyantly for one or two then I apologise. That doesn't mean I'd change a single post or alter a single opinion - I wouldn't get this worked up if I thought Tarantino was, say, of Tony Scott's level of competence.

It's far better having a discussion like this than over a film that everyone thought was 'all right', no?

Oops missed start of this one, surprised to see so many of my own feeling echoed here; Jackie Brown is always what i've forwarded as his best film, mature and not as reliant on Tarantino-isms. I'd perhaps tie Kill Bill: Vol 2 with it for same reasons.

Anyway, for Death Proof, i've seen both cuts and the extended version definitely makes it even worse with some extra painful dialogues between Eli Roth and Tarantino. And c'mon who wants that? Not me. This one example seems completely indicative of my major gripe with Death Proof and that is Tarantino isn't making a homage, he's making a Tarantino film. He should've left his ego out of the production and made a more coherent slasher film.

I didn't approve of the dual narrative and totally agree with Mark about Stuntman Mike, he should have been a bad ass killer and the revert to womans revenge narrative took away everything that worked in the first half. Kurt Russel did own the role, until he became a pussy, it could have been an interesting character study if it weren't for his lack of screen-time and development. Whats more the women were instantly unlikeable with the characterisation forced and dialogue based, which while isn't necessarily a problem with the right director, Tarantino can't quit his fixation on hip referencing which in turn does nothing for his characters.

As everyone said, Tac, you hit the nail on head, just because he's meant to be referencing 'Grindhouse' films which supposedly are inherently bad, he didn't have to make such a poor film. In fact think his adherence to the genre is the aesthetic print damage, much else could be seen as standard Tarantino affair. As for Planet Terror while it had problems (did Grindhouse films really have THAT much budget?) it's definitely superior in every respect.

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What exactly has been added from the Grindhouse release, PT?

Forgive me if I don't appear well-versed in the workings of QT and the Weinsteins (which sounds like the title of a kids' TV show ) but I wonder if Death Proof was initially intended to get a solo run or were matters taken out of the director's hands following the less-than-stellar box office returns?

Planet Terror mostly added continuity shots, which made the film run smoother and didn't really alter the overall film but Death Proof notably has whole extra scenes of dialogue (Eli Roth's for example), think one scene where Mike sniffs some feet (because we all love Tarantino sharing his foot fetish ). Just rubbish really that was best left cut, it makes the film even more jarring. Can't remember too well, mind. Have you imported the DVD Tac or catch it at cinema?

I rented it on Sunday - brought it back to the store about an hour ago.

Did it not mention on the disc some of the additions?

I didn't look beyond the main feature, to be honest, though I did see that the DVD I rented said 'Disc 1'. It's not the first time this particular store has decided not to include the Extras portion of multi-disc features. The one time I tackled them about it they mumbled something about people returning a 2-disc film with one DVD missing (keeping the main feature, natch) then causing a stink when confronted.

I managed to make them see the error of their ways but they must be slipping back.

Anyway, I digress.

I look at Death Proof as being two different halves of two different movies. The first half is the beginning of a slasher film about a stuntman named Stuntman Mike, while the second half is the ending (or middle?) of a car movie about two crazy stuntwomen. Kurt Russell could be playing two different characters, like Mark was saying. You could look at it as if Tarantino had slapped two movies together, renamed it Death Proof, and called it the end when Stuntman Mike died, leaving the fate of the cheerleader up in the air.

If they did that sort of thing in Grind House theatres then that was obviously Tarantino's intention. And if you're saying "Yes, but why did it have to be s***?", then I can't answer that, because I really don't think it is s***.

I've said that Tarantino needs to be more original, and I still agree with that. But he's still very much into his homage. He was a video-store clerk turned famous movie director. A film geek with the freedom to make anything he wants. And with Inglorious Bastards set to be his tribute to War films, he's showing no signs of change. Homage is a big part of his style, and it doesn't annoy me because it's what I've come to expect. But without all the homage, he still manages to create these wonderful, colourful characters that all have an essence of movie-cool about them.

I like Death Proof because it's just so Tarantino. It takes place in the Tarantino movie world which is always a blast. The long dialogue scenes feel like you're just hanging out with the characters, so they never bore me (even if they're full of unnecessary references to pop culture). I completely understand why people don't like this movie, but I myself can't help but like it. I just love watching a Tarantino film, and it's because I have so much fun watching the great actors he casts interact with one another and speak his tremendous dialogue. And that's simply it.

This is how I'd rank his films so far...

1. Kill Bill vol. 1
1. Kill Bill vol. 2
3. Jackie Brown
4. Pulp Fiction
5. Death Proof
6. Reservoir Dogs

So yeah, I had watching Death Proof. Not as much fun as I did watching Planet Terror, but that's a different story.

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Did anyone notice the title of the film which is on the screen a split second before Death Proof comes on?

dang Netflix sent mea broken DVD, I had to return it, it is shipping to me today.

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I used to be addicted to crystal meth, now I'm just addicted to Breaking Bad.

Yeah, "Quentin Tarantino's THUNDER BOLT".

I'll open this post with a question, did this film get made to please QT fans?

The answer, albeit painful to the Taratinophiles, is NO. "This isn't the greatest"...movie..."in the world, no. This is just a tribute" - Tenacious D. And that's what everyone who's watch this fantastic film needs to realize. When QT first imagined an homage to Grindhouse, I'm sure he could of taken the well trodden path, a la Robert Rodriguez and Planet Terror. But he did not. He decided to choose a path, he chose "the one less travelled". He decided to make a grindhouse homage that was grindhouse itself. And THAT is why he is the esteemed filmmaker he is. It's only mistake was to market it to mainstream followers and mass produce it.

Death Proof is not the future of film...it's the past revisited by a present day man's eyes.

For someone who absolulety LOVES grindhouse, eurocult, exploitation, trash, drive-in, and late nite cinema, Death Proof is what I see when I imagine a modern day''s grindhouse film. Some see House of 1000 Corpses or Devil's Rejects. I can relate and disagree at the same time.

Lagging boring dialogue...check.

A sexy heronie seeking revenge...check.

Long drawn-out pointless story on its way to a climactic ending...check.

Piss off 99% of film fans, and make 1% absolutely love it...check.

A no $ budget, with making even less in revenue...errrr...oh well! Can't do it all!

In conclusion, Tarantino succeeded in making the film and homage he wanted. And me and my big buddy QT don't care that you disliked it!

**done and done**

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