Game of Thrones: Season 4

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Sleezy's Avatar
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In the Beginning...
04-22-14
Yeah, there seems to be a fair amount of blood in the water over the scene. And rightfully so. It was an absolute misstep, no question. It's sad to see things come off the tracks unnecessarily. It's sad to see a total lapse in consistent characterization, especially when the source material is sitting right in front of you.

I don't know that I'll say Jaime's arc is ruined from this scene. His status as a fan favorite has certainly taken a hit. But there's an expectation of dark turns in this show, just as there is an expectation of unpredictability. This is why I think most viewers will accept when Jaime inevitably steers back toward the light. Either enough episodes will pass that this one scene will be largely forgotten, or the show's writers will include some sort of "why did I do that, I don't wanna be like that" penance scene for Jaime and the rest of his story can continue as normal.

That said, I can't help but feel like the show's creators should own this scene. This should leave a much greater stain on the story than it will. In reality, this would be traumatic for Cersei and devastating for their "relationship." If they're going to put rape in the story, they shouldn't back off from the physical, emotional, and psychological damage of rape.



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04-22-14
The director talked about the scene as if he intended it to be taken as mostly consensual after the initial resistance, for what it's worth. I don't think that comes across much, though.



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The Adventure Starts Here!
04-22-14
It doesn't come across that way at ALL. I rewatched it this morning, and because we'd been discussing it here, I paid close attention to Cersei in that scene. She protests all the way through to the bitter end of the scene. Not even close, IMHO. Is that bad directing then? Or did he not realize that we only see what he shows us? Whether or not we *think* Cersei would be the type to assent, she doesn't. And this is after a scene two weeks ago where she rebuffs Jaime and says he took too long to come back to her. So we go into this scene thinking she WILL rebuff him and are not surprised to see that she does.

Strange thing is, I know the producers consult with GRRM on storylines, etc., so what did he have to say about this? I'm guessing he doesn't hang around the set watching all the filming all the time, but I do wonder if he's now scratching his head at how that scene played out onscreen.



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04-23-14
I havent read the books but havent heard complaints of authenticity towards the books till now. From their track record Im sure the directors, producers, writers, etc... wouldnt blink of having it the way it was written.

The only reason I could see why they went so far from the book is if the actress had input. I mean, why contrive a rape in a storyline? I betcha she couldnt wrap her mind around the fact the character would wantonly have sex next to her dead son. So they made it to wear she resisted.


Also meant to post that Im enjoying the interplay of Ser Davos and Shireen




Sleezy's Avatar
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In the Beginning...
04-23-14
Originally Posted by Austruck
Strange thing is, I know the producers consult with GRRM on storylines, etc., so what did he have to say about this? I'm guessing he doesn't hang around the set watching all the filming all the time, but I do wonder if he's now scratching his head at how that scene played out onscreen.
Ask and you shall receive. From his blog:

Since a lot of people have been emailing me about this, however, I will reply... but please, take any further discussion of the show to one of the myriad on-line forums devoted to that.

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.
I can see Martin's rationale for playing Devil's advocate and suggesting that the scene is warranted because changes were made to both characters and the events that led them to the scene in question. But therein lies the trouble. Why alter Cersei's character to be so repulsed by Jaime? She does eventually alienate him a bit in the books, but not in that scene. And Jaime, after returning, is never again so needy of her.

It's interesting how these seemingly minor alterations have caused a major tremor in the story. I've been wondering if we would see more of that. Cutting out characters and changing events will inevitably force the show's creators to navigate their way back on-course or choose to see their deviations through, wherever they might lead.
Last edited by Sleezy; 04-23-14 at 01:13 AM.



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04-23-14
Agree with Austruck. Watching it a second time, Cersei resists the entire time, including the last line uttered in the scene before it cuts away. Really poorly done. I like Sleezy's point about the writers possibly injecting a scene later that shows remorse for our flawed Wagnerian. That would right the ship a bit, while adding more depth to Jaime.
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The Adventure Starts Here!
04-23-14
Yes, they could definitely salvage it that way. One of the things that Jaime is learning and one of the ways he is evolving -- and Cersei is not -- is that he is much more prone to regret. He is circumspect about his past deeds. He has begun to see shadows of right and wrong where he did not before.

So, if the storytellers for the show manage to give Jaime a healthy dose of regret and shame over what he has done -- perhaps depending on how the next few Jaime/Cersei scenes play out -- then we will probably gladly forgive him and see this as part of his slow but steady evolution into a man of conscience.



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04-23-14
Mole's Town.
Yeah, Sleezy, I figured that's what was intended, yet either my captioning didn't catch the punctuation or my weak eyesight didn't, but I still thought it would be somewhat humorous, in a sick sort of way, if the screenwriter's (and I think it was G.R.R.M. for this episode, wasn't it?) intent was to write it so it would be very close to coming out as "Molest Town" in it's spelling.

Sedai, I agree wholeheartedly about Natlie Dormer's portrayal of Margaery. I've admired her since the mini-series The Tudors, where she played a very teasing Anne Boleyn. I know I've seen her in other things, but these two shows, as Anne and Margaery, totally eclipse anything she's done before. The fact that she's very easy on the eyes helps also.

I'm wondering about Jamie and Cersei. I jokingly thought that maybe to save both of their character arcs after that scene, that they'd be shown either in bed, or beside Joffrey's body, smoking whatever passes for cigarettes in those days, saying, "Well, that was a mistake, wasn't it?" "Yep. Well, back to our lives then."

But, my weak attempt at humor aside, the previews show Cersei pleading with Jamie to go out and bring her back Sansa's head. To which of course, I'm sure Jamie will refuse. So, scene from last week aside, I guess she still depends on him.
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Last edited by dadgumblah; 04-23-14 at 11:56 PM.



Austruck's Avatar
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The Adventure Starts Here!
04-24-14
Definitely wasn't GRRM writing that episode. I think it was Sedai who posted a link to GRRM saying he hadn't a clue what they were going to do with that episode. And someone posted another link to someone else involved with the show (was it the director?) trying to backpedal a little bit about whether it was consensual. (I wasn't buying any of THAT -- it was not portrayed as consensual.)



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04-24-14
Originally Posted by dadgumblah
Sedai, I agree wholeheartedly about Natlie Dormer's portrayal of Margaery. I've admired her since the mini-series The Tudors, where she played a very teasing Anne Boleyn. I know I've seen her in other things, but these two shows, as Anne and Margaery, totally eclipse anything she's done before. The fact that she's very easy on the eyes helps also.
Ah she's in The Tudors! Im gonna finish watching GoT season 1 again, then rewatch True Detective (only seen each episode once), and then start The Tudors which Ive never seen. Heard its good. Its funny when I see GoT actors on Downton Abbey.

Looking forward to the showdown between The Mountain and Antonio Banderas Jr






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The Adventure Starts Here!
04-24-14
The Tudors was pretty good, I thought, even if it did play a little fast and loose with history. But that's half the fun. Great acting all around. It wasn't a miniseries, though. It was a full-blown Showtime series that lasted four full seasons. Great period piece. I should rewatch it myself, now that we have a big-a$$ TV.



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The Adventure Starts Here!
04-24-14
Originally Posted by Sleezy
He doesn't sound like Banderas, but he certainly has that flavor.

But more importantly.... where the [expletive deleted] has Antonio Banderas been?
Looks like he's been pretty busy, actually:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000104/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1



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04-25-14
Rewatching season 1 theres a couple things I missed.

First the witch that Daenarys had treat Khal Drogo must have quickened the infection process, and thereby killed him. I thought she only miscarried Danys baby.

Also Bran Starks seemingly innocent little brother has some powers himself. He seems to be able to see spirits, and the future somewhat. More like an empathic feeling of the future.



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04-25-14
Right, Austruck, it was a series. I don't know why I wrote that. I even thought of True Detective as a mini-series, even though it's supposed to have a second season. I've even read that the producers consider it an anthology series, so I don't know---I just know I really like it. By the way, nice cat video. I'm surprised someone hadn't come up with before now.

I always like to see bloopers of various series. I've hope for bloopers of Game of Thrones but I guess because it's so serious, maybe they think it will take something away from the show. I don't know.



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04-26-14
Heres a tidbit I didnt know...



Game of Thrones and its creators, David Benioff and D.B. Weiss, found themselves in a bit of hot water after the head of George W. Bush made a cameo on the show… impaled on a spike. During the 10th episode of the show’s first season, the evil boy-king Joffrey forces his betrothed, Sansa Stark (Sophie Turner), to gaze at the head of her decapitated father, Ned Stark (Sean Bean) on a spike. The camera moves and several other heads impaled on spikes are seen—including one that looks an awful lot like former President George W. Bush. The creators acknowledged it was in fact Dubya on the Season 1 DVD commentary, and later apologized, saying, “We use a lot of prosthetic body parts on the show: heads, arms, etc.,” Benioff and Weiss said. “We can't afford to have these all made from scratch, especially in scenes where we need a lot of them, so we rent them in bulk. After the scene was already shot, someone pointed out that one of the heads looked like George W. Bush.” HBO also apologized, calling it “in bad taste,” and removed the episode from their streaming services, as well as any future Season 1 DVDs.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-and-more.html



Austruck's Avatar
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The Adventure Starts Here!
04-26-14
They're removing the entire episode, or just that scene/snippet? Removing the entire episode seems wrong -- and would obviously create a huge gap in the story.

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