Alec Baldwin accidentally kills crew member with prop gun

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To be clear, I don't think he is God, but I heard he does!
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This is true, and 'producer' can be a nebulous or even ceremonial title. Maybe Baldwin put up some funding. Maybe it was Baldwin who had the rights to the script. Maybe Baldwin was getting points on gross. But Baldwin is clearly the name attached to the project, and if he wanted to put his foot down over lax safety issues or supporting the greivances of his crew, I bet you his authority would be decisive. But maybe he wasn't aware of the issues. Or maybe he didn't care. These are details that will come out eventually, but we can see that this was a dangerous, dysfunctional set. As I mentioned earlier, I'd like to see who was making these decisions and creating the on-set culture.
Right...and thanks for explaining.

I'm curious as to how this will turn out. I hope justice is done...I also hope some sort of procedural changes with guns and filming movies can be made. Hopefully making things a bit safer. Not that any endeavor is ever truly safe.



Okay so I skimmed through the thread and it's time for some facts.

1. The job of a producer is not to focus on the minutia on a set, that isn't even the job of the director but rather the assistant director, Dave Halls, who gave Baldwin the gun.



2. The person that loaded the gun, the armorer is a woman named Hannah Gutierrez




3. She was trained by her father Thell Reed


4. She had another incident with a child
https://meaww.com/armorer-hannah-gut...thout-checking

5. So why was a 24 year old put in this situation...is it greed for cheap workers...perhaps but also..
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/09/m...diversity.html

Standard B is focused on hiring behind the scenes and asks productions to meet at least one of the following criteria:
  • Two or more department heads — meaning jobs like director, cinematographer or composer — must be female, L.G.T.B.Q., disabled or part of an underrepresented racial or ethnic group.
  • At least six other crew members must be from an underrepresented racial or ethnic group.
  • At least 30 percent of the film’s crew must hail from the four underrepresented groups continually laid out in these guidelines.
So if I were to rank those responsible for this death..

1. Hannah Guitterrez
2. Dave Halls
3. Cheryl Boone Issacs (head of the Oscars)
4. Thell Reed (who "trained" his daughter)
5. Joel Souza (director)
6. Alec Baldwin (shooter)



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Strawman argument! I never said that! (and you said that in a veiled reference) but your post tries to make me look like I might have said that.


I am trying to bracket what you might have meant by the following statement made by you:
If there was a blank lined up for the next shot (of the gun) then spinning the cylinder by anyone without knowledge of firearms would be stupid as it could misaligned the blank with the firing pin.
You say I am getting this wrong, but I am not sure how I am supposed to get this right. How am I supposed to read this?


A visual inspection from the loading gate required turning through all six chambers and at the point that you see that the cylinders aren't empty, you know there is trouble. Where does the realignment problem come in?

I am sincerely not trying to strawman you, but I don't see how you have a refutation here. I do not see how you have established that inspecting a weapon makes it more dangerous (e.g., you say it would be "stupid" to inspect a gun by turning the cylinder). OK, how?



You say I am wrong. Fine, set me right.



Registered User
So if I were to rank those responsible for this death..

1. Hannah Guitterrez
2. Dave Halls
3. Cheryl Boone Issacs (head of the Oscars)
4. Thell Reed (who "trained" his daughter)
5. Joel Souza (director)
6. Alec Baldwin (shooter)

I can live this although I might quibble about the ranking.



This reminds me an old murder paradox. Two people are looking to kill the same person. He is planning a long hike in the desert. One party (A) poisons his canteen. If he drinks from it, instant death. The other party (B), however, pokes a hole in his canteen, resulting in a slow drip. When the man is on his hike, he finds his canteen empty, but his life was prolonged by the person who killed him (by poking a hole in the canteen). Who is the killer?



If Hannah is a real person she looks like she would be more likely at a protest against guns rather then a person that should be handling any type of gun.
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101 Favorite Movies (2019)



That elusive hide-and-seek cow is at it again
I can live this although I might quibble about the ranking.



This reminds me an old murder paradox. Two people are looking to kill the same person. He is planning a long hike in the desert. One party (A) poisons his canteen. If he drinks from it, instant death. The other party (B), however, pokes a hole in his canteen, resulting in a slow drip. When the man is on his hike, he finds his canteen empty, but his life was prolonged by the person who killed him (by poking a hole in the canteen). Who is the killer?

Which one was the butler?
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Registered User
If Hannah is a real person she looks like she would be more likely at a protest against guns rather then a person that should be handling any type of gun.

In my defense, she prepped my keyboard this weekend and told me that it was "cold" before I started posting in this thread.



If Thell Reed or Cheryl Boone Issacs weren't part of the movie or on set how are they responsible at all? I think both of these are a reach.



タイムコップ Timecop
Damn, Hannah Gutierrez is hot!

Standard B is focused on hiring behind the scenes and asks productions to meet at least one of the following criteria:
Two or more department heads — meaning jobs like director, cinematographer or composer — must be female, L.G.T.B.Q., disabled or part of an underrepresented racial or ethnic group.
At least six other crew members must be from an underrepresented racial or ethnic group.
At least 30 percent of the film’s crew must hail from the four underrepresented groups continually laid out in these guidelines.


I know this is a touchy subject but these people should be hired based on their skills/experience only.
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Damn, Hannah Gutierrez is hot!

Standard B is focused on hiring behind the scenes and asks productions to meet at least one of the following criteria:
Two or more department heads — meaning jobs like director, cinematographer or composer — must be female, L.G.T.B.Q., disabled or part of an underrepresented racial or ethnic group.
At least six other crew members must be from an underrepresented racial or ethnic group.
At least 30 percent of the film’s crew must hail from the four underrepresented groups continually laid out in these guidelines.


I know this is a touchy subject but these people should be hired based on their skills/experience only.
Agreed on everything except the first sentence… a hard no there! 😬



タイムコップ Timecop
O
So if I were to rank those responsible for this death..

1. Hannah Guitterrez
2. Dave Halls
3. Cheryl Boone Issacs (head of the Oscars)
4. Thell Reed (who "trained" his daughter)
5. Joel Souza (director)
6. Alec Baldwin (shooter)
I'm wondering, why her dad should be responsible for her acts? She's an adult at this point.
We don't know how well he trained her - even if he was a bad teacher, I can't see how he is responsible for this. Was he on the set?

I can't help but feel for the child that lost her mother. He is 9. I only can imagine the pain. I hope all this subject goes away and that the family conforts him and Halyna's mother. Also, hope Baldwin stick with his friends and family right now. Nobody deserves this kind of "blood on his hand", the guy might be devasted.



タイムコップ Timecop
Agreed on everything except the first sentence… a hard no there! 😬
I google it. She's not that hot...
Siddon just picked a great photo of her.



I'm wondering, why her dad should be responsible for her acts? She's an adult at this point.
We don't know how well he trained her - even if he was a bad teacher, I can't see how he is responsible for this. Was he on the set?

I can't help but feel for the child that lost her mother. He is 9. I only can imagine the pain. I hope all this subject goes away and that the family conforts him and Halyna's mother. Also, hope Baldwin stick with his friends and family right now. Nobody deserves this kind of "blood on his hand", the guy might be devasted.
Well you own a restaurant and you let your son cook for the guests. The kid doesn't understand the difference between milk and bleach and someone dies I think the responsibility and liability goes to the person responsible for letting that person near the food.

The thing is...this wasn't a one time accident it had happened a week earlier on the same set. Also there was another incident on another set with an 11 year old was given a live gun. Hiring an incompetent armorer is bad but with the volume of mistakes this woman made I think it's negligence.


If Thell Reed or Cheryl Boone Issacs weren't part of the movie or on set how are they responsible at all? I think both of these are a reach.

The first type of involuntary manslaughter occurs when a defendant recklessly or negligently commits an act that results in the death of another person. Recklessness usually means that the defendant was aware of the risk that they were creating, while negligence usually means that the defendant was not aware of the risk but reasonably should have been aware of it. The level of negligence required for involuntary manslaughter is higher than normal civil negligence and requires that the defendant have acted in a very unreasonable manner. The exact language used to describe this negligence standard varies by state, but many refer to it as “criminal negligence” or “gross negligence.”



Criminal negligence can also involve a failure to perform an act that the defendant has a duty to perform. Where a parent has a duty to take care of and protect a child, but the child dies when she is left in the car on a hot day, the parent may be culpable for involuntary manslaughter. Another example would be a tour operator who fails to advise his passengers of the proper safety protocols, resulting in the death of a passenger. This tour operator has failed to perform his duty, resulting in criminal negligence.

Issacs pushed for a policy that led to a rushed and poorly trained individual to qualify for work. Reed was the trainer and all the immediate mistakes Guitterez made shows me that he was negligent.



タイムコップ Timecop
Well you own a restaurant and you let your son cook for the guests. The kid doesn't understand the difference between milk and bleach and someone dies I think the responsibility and liability goes to the person responsible for letting that person near the food.

The thing is...this wasn't a one time accident it had happened a week earlier on the same set. Also there was another incident on another set with an 11 year old was given a live gun. Hiring an incompetent armorer is bad but with the volume of mistakes this woman made I think it's negligence.

Issacs pushed for a policy that led to a rushed and poorly trained individual to qualify for work. Reed was the trainer and all the immediate mistakes Guitterez made shows me that he was negligent.
Hum. Got it. But Thell Reed actually was the guy that contracted her own daughter for the job? Maybe he was part of production? 'cause if he was just the guy that trained her, still can't see any kind of responsability.

But I understand your point. The fact that this wasn't a one time accident is beyond me. I can't help but wonder why the producers didn't do anything about the mistakes.. And why the hell wasn't she more cautious. It is normal for people who make mistakes to be more cautious in the coming days.



Well you own a restaurant and you let your son cook for the guests. The kid doesn't understand the difference between milk and bleach and someone dies I think the responsibility and liability goes to the person responsible for letting that person near the food.

The thing is...this wasn't a one time accident it had happened a week earlier on the same set. Also there was another incident on another set with an 11 year old was given a live gun. Hiring an incompetent armorer is bad but with the volume of mistakes this woman made I think it's negligence.

But her Dad had nothing to do with the movie. Or did he? I don't know. Using your example, it would be more like the chef's son working at a different restaurant, using bleach instead of milk and blaming his chef parent rather than the chef/owner of the restaurant where he works.