What's wrong with sentimentalism?

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Agreed, and I would say I did acknowledge that some critiques of sentimentality are legitimate when I wrote "To be fair, I'm sure there are numerous instances where a film dips into schmaltziness due to how thick the sentimentalism is layered on, in addition to instances where sentimentality doesn't suit the tone of a film or scene." With that, I was explaining that I was referring to categorical objectors of sentimentality, not case-by-case objectors.
And that puts the question back on us, how thick is too thick? How much shmaltz is too much? It is, no doubt, true. And yet, how do we draw the line?

I think sentimentalism (as an evaluative pejorative) can be marked, on a case-by-case basis, by the following features.

1. Emotional Pentatonics. In music the easiest "go to" for writing and improvisation (vocally or in a guitar solo) is to play in the pentatonic scale. It is familiar, happy, predictable, requires no special skill and is a way to bribe the audience (like extra butter in cooked into a fancy restaurant dish). I speak of the emotions of the melodrama (e.g., joy, sadness, and outrage). Basically, the emotions associated with catharsis. Bad guy is bad and makes us sad. Our outrage demands that the man twirling his mustache must pay. Our damsel in distress is saved and we feel joy. Having this single feature is not, of course, sufficient to warrant the charge of sentimentalism. There are, after all, many excellent songs written (literally) in the pentatonic scale and many great artworks that touch on these cathartic emotions. That stated, when people complain of "sentimentalism," this is the color palate to which they're referring.

2. Compensation. The sentimental (in a bad sense) artwork typically makes this Pentatonic move as a compensation for some lacking feature. The subject-matter, for example, may be more appropriate for a more complicated emotional result (e.g., the sublime, ennui, melancholy), but the artist can't stick the landing so a "safer" and "easier" result is selected. In terms of emplotment, it's like getting out a tight corner, by announcing that most of what we saw "was just a dream" (e.g., a main character isn't dead, the MacGuffin is still MacGuffing) as an answer to the question "How will the Duke boys get our of this one?" as frozen frame featuring the General Lee flying midair as the network cuts to a commercial.

3. Incongruity. The objection, in the plainest of terms, arises when the emotional moment feels unearned, force, or false. Perhaps, the unhappy couple, both of whom have been cheating on the other, resolves their differences by putting an ad in the paper asking for a lover who likes Pina Colodas, and they "tomayto-tomahto" their prior mutual betrayals away in a romantic walk in the rain after one surprises the other by answering it. "Uh, didn't he still sleep with her mom? Didn't she burn down his hunting cabin?". This is why a heel-turn so often demands a death. Darth nuked Alderan, so he can't just rave with the Ewoks and hug it out with Leia and the end and call it good at the end of RotJ. The death-bed conversion frees our characters from the awkward emotional "walk of shame" the next day when you suddenly remember who you just embraced as a "goodie" or a "good enough".

I think Nolan tipped his hand as an artist when one of our characters in Inception created a psycho-hallucination-hustle arguing "What people crave most is catharsis." And my goodness, does Interstellar lay it on thick.



everyone is so irony-pilled now you can't just have a nice, sincere moment in a film without it being undercut by a joke. i want my emotions to be manipulated and i love when a film makes me go "awww 🥹"
Yes.

I recently watched this video and it addresses just that point.




And that puts the question back on us, how thick is too thick? How much shmaltz is too much? It is, no doubt, true. And yet, how do we draw the line?

I think sentimentalism (as an evaluative pejorative) can be marked, on a case-by-case basis, by the following features.

1. Emotional Pentatonics. In music the easiest "go to" for writing and improvisation (vocally or in a guitar solo) is to play in the pentatonic scale. It is familiar, happy, predictable, requires no special skill and is a way to bribe the audience (like extra butter in cooked into a fancy restaurant dish). I speak of the emotions of the melodrama (e.g., joy, sadness, and outrage). Basically, the emotions associated with catharsis. Bad guy is bad and makes us sad. Our outrage demands that the man twirling his mustache must pay. Our damsel in distress is saved and we feel joy. Having this single feature is not, of course, sufficient to warrant the charge of sentimentalism. There are, after all, many excellent songs written (literally) in the pentatonic scale and many great artworks that touch on these cathartic emotions. That stated, when people complain of "sentimentalism," this is the color palate to which they're referring.

2. Compensation. The sentimental (in a bad sense) artwork typically makes this Pentatonic move as a compensation for some lacking feature. The subject-matter, for example, may be more appropriate for a more complicated emotional result (e.g., the sublime, ennui, melancholy), but the artist can't stick the landing so a "safer" and "easier" result is selected. In terms of emplotment, it's like getting out a tight corner, by announcing that most of what we saw "was just a dream" (e.g., a main character isn't dead, the MacGuffin is still MacGuffing) as an answer to the question "How will the Duke boys get our of this one?" as frozen frame featuring the General Lee flying midair as the network cuts to a commercial.

3. Incongruity. The objection, in the plainest of terms, arises when the emotional moment feels unearned, force, or false. Perhaps, the unhappy couple, both of whom have been cheating on the other, resolves their differences by putting an ad in the paper asking for a lover who likes Pina Colodas, and they "tomayto-tomahto" their prior mutual betrayals away in a romantic walk in the rain after one surprises the other by answering it. "Uh, didn't he still sleep with her mom? Didn't she burn down his hunting cabin?". This is why a heel-turn so often demands a death. Darth nuked Alderan, so he can't just rave with the Ewoks and hug it out with Leia and the end and call it good at the end of RotJ. The death-bed conversion frees our characters from the awkward emotional "walk of shame" the next day when you suddenly remember who you just embraced as a "goodie" or a "good enough".

I think Nolan tipped his hand as an artist when one of our characters in Inception created a psycho-hallucination-hustle arguing "What people crave most is catharsis." And my goodness, does Interstellar lay it on thick.
I think I agree with all that.

Out of curiosity, which parts of Inception and Interstellar are you referring to?



I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously who acts as though the quippy, self-referential remark in Hollywood movies was invented in the last 10 years or whatever.

It's been used on-and-off for a long time and once in a while it just seems to catch on with audiences, for whatever reason. That YouTube dude should try watching Sullivan's Travels, for starters.



I think I agree with all that.

Out of curiosity, which parts of Inception and Interstellar are you referring to?
There is a line from Inception where they try to figure out how to con the tycoon.
COBB
Now, the subconscious motivates
through emotion, not reason, so we
have to translate the idea into an
emotional concept.
ARTHUR
How do you translate a business
strategy into an emotion?
COBB
That's what we have to figure out.
Robert and his father have a tense
relationship. Worse, even, than the
gossip columns have suggested...
EAMES
Do you play on that? Suggest
breaking up his father's company as
a 'screw you' to the old man?
COBB
No. Positive emotion trumps
negative emotion every time. We
yearn for people to be reconciled,
for catharsis. We need positive
emotional logic.
I think here the fillmaker is letting us know what he is trying to do to us (the audience) in Interstellar. Enter the tesseract. Or rather don't, because you'll get lost in there! It's a multidimensional mess. How does Nolan translate the problem of navigating this unknown of unknowns? This is, basically, his 2001 monolith. Will we enter a stargate and watch the phases of life in a sort of waiting room as we wait for the birth of a Starchild? No. So, what is the thread which gets us through the maze of the looming monolith of the tesseract. Well, it's love, silly.
And we all cry at the thought of a father losing touch with his daughter, seeking a denied emotional connection (denied by the dimension of time itself). How does dad beat back time to connect with his kid to save the world? With love. All you need is love. Love conquers all. And love is, apparently, the key to navigating bizarre multidimensional spaces. In short, it's sentimental (in a way I find a bit annoying).



I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously who acts as though the quippy, self-referential remark in Hollywood movies was invented in the last 10 years or whatever.

It's been used on-and-off for a long time and once in a while it just seems to catch on with audiences, for whatever reason. That YouTube dude should try watching Sullivan's Travels, for starters.
16-year-old video blogger: "This all started way back in the 21st century in the first film I can remember seeing..."



There is a line from Inception where they try to figure out how to con the tycoon.
COBB
Now, the subconscious motivates
through emotion, not reason, so we
have to translate the idea into an
emotional concept.
ARTHUR
How do you translate a business
strategy into an emotion?
COBB
That's what we have to figure out.
Robert and his father have a tense
relationship. Worse, even, than the
gossip columns have suggested...
EAMES
Do you play on that? Suggest
breaking up his father's company as
a 'screw you' to the old man?
COBB
No. Positive emotion trumps
negative emotion every time. We
yearn for people to be reconciled,
for catharsis. We need positive
emotional logic.
I think here the fillmaker is letting us know what he is trying to do to us (the audience) in Interstellar. Enter the tesseract. Or rather don't, because you'll get lost in there! It's a multidimensional mess. How does Nolan translate the problem of navigating this unknown of unknowns? This is, basically, his 2001 monolith. Will we enter a stargate and watch the phases of life in a sort of waiting room as we wait for the birth of a Starchild? No. So, what is the thread which gets us through the maze of the looming monolith of the tesseract. Well, it's love, silly.
And we all cry at the thought of a father losing touch with his daughter, seeking a denied emotional connection (denied by the dimension of time itself). How does dad beat back time to connect with his kid to save the world? With love. All you need is love. Love conquers all. And love is, apparently, the key to navigating bizarre multidimensional spaces. In short, it's sentimental (in a way I find a bit annoying).
Oh God, yeah. I especially agree in regard to Interstellar. As cool as the tesseract scene is visually, thematically speaking, it essentially boils down to "saving the world with love". Given all the buildup, it seemed like such a big slap in the face. I've always been shocked both by its high IMDb ratings and it being praised as a complex masterpiece by some.



I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone seriously who acts as though the quippy, self-referential remark in Hollywood movies was invented in the last 10 years or whatever.

It's been used on-and-off for a long time and once in a while it just seems to catch on with audiences, for whatever reason. That YouTube dude should try watching Sullivan's Travels, for starters.
That's not what the video is saying.

It's talking about the way that blockbuster movies are seemingly unable to let a sincere moment sit and exist without needing to wedge some snark in there. Sullivan's Travels is a comedy, so it seems like a weird comparison to what he's talking about, which are big-budget action/sci-fi/fantasy films.

A better comparison might be the Lord of the Rings trilogy which does have comic relief and quips, but also has some genuine and sincere moments that are not undercut with jokes. The current level of snark saturation is a big reason I bailed on the Marvel movies years ago. As the video points out, these films spend so much time trying to build high stakes, and a seemingly equal amount of time undercutting any genuine tension or sense of risk/vulnerability.

Obviously action/fantasy movies have always had a huge range in terms of whether they're more straightforward or more comedic, but I can't think of any era of action/fantasy nearly as jampacked with snark as what's been coming out for the last decade.



Oh God, yeah. I especially agree in regard to Interstellar. As cool as the tesseract scene is visually, thematically speaking, it essentially boils down to "saving the world with love". Given all the buildup, it seemed like such a big slap in the face. I've always been shocked both by its high IMDb ratings and it being praised as a complex masterpiece by some.
As much as Shyamalan would become trapped in his "twists," I think Nolan has been ensnared by the idea of "premise-as-puzzle."
I think Nolan's compensation for all this to buy us off with an occasional emotional bribe.

Speaking of sentimenal bulls**t and Shyamalan, I submit to the court Glass (2019) in which our eponymous villain is quasi-redeemed in a revelation to the world that we all "could be heroes" (just for one day?), but the man has been keeping us down, not letting us dream and act BIG. Mr. Glass (mass-murderer) is given the big monologue signaling to us that he wasn't all that bad (he was just trying to show humanity how cool it could be if they took superheroes more seriously!). The ending is damned near (if not, in fact) a non-sequitur that attempts to tie three films together in an unearned an jarring emotionally inspiring catharsis (all the characters are beautiful in their own way!) .



That's not what the video is saying.

It's talking about the way that blockbuster movies are seemingly unable to let a sincere moment sit and exist without needing to wedge some snark in there.
I thought the idea was talking about popular movies in general. And Preston's movies were hugely popular back in the day.



I thought the idea was talking about popular movies in general. And Preston's movies were hugely popular back in the day.
Every movie cited in the video is a superhero/action/fantasy movie, which is the blockbuster "subgenre" he's talking about.

(And today I learned that the term "blockbuster" originated in the early 40s).



Every movie cited in the video is a superhero/action/fantasy movie, which is the blockbuster "subgenre" he's talking about.

(And today I learned that the term "blockbuster" originated in the early 40s).
Because that's the most popular genre in the recent decades?

Therefore, using classic comedies for the Golden Age of Hollywood seems like an apt comparison, imho

The main point is that popular movies have done this in the past, too. Doesn't seem like anything new, to me.



The Guy Who Sees Movies
In this thread, it seems as though the title prejudices the conclusion. "Sentimentality" is a loaded term, one that suggests that the emotions portrayed are fake, cheap, or manipulative. How do we distinguish between heartfelt emotion, nostalgia, memory and sentimentality? If I remember Christmas dinner with my Granny, is that sentimentality? I don't know the answer myself, except whether the viewer liked the movie, for whatever reason.



The Guy Who Sees Movies
Every movie cited in the video is a superhero/action/fantasy movie, which is the blockbuster "subgenre" he's talking about.

(And today I learned that the term "blockbuster" originated in the early 40s).
As I recall the term originated from particularly large non-nuclear bombs dropped by specially equipped aircraft on cities during WW II. Somehow that became a word for big. In the movie context, it was associated with big production movies expected to have huge ticket sales.

Here you go (Wikipedia):

A blockbuster bomb or cookie was one of several of the largest conventional bombs used in World War II by the Royal Air Force (RAF). The term blockbuster was originally a name coined by the press and referred to a bomb which had enough explosive power to destroy an entire street or large building through the effects of blast in conjunction with incendiary bombs.



In this thread, it seems as though the title prejudices the conclusion. "Sentimentality" is a loaded term, one that suggests that the emotions portrayed are fake, cheap, or manipulative. How do we distinguish between heartfelt emotion, nostalgia, memory and sentimentality? If I remember Christmas dinner with my Granny, is that sentimentality? I don't know the answer myself, except whether the viewer liked the movie, for whatever reason.
Words often have more than one meaning. I might object to an object on my lawn. I might try to table a discussion about buying a table. As one movie had a bemused investigator ask a clerk regarding an alleged shoplifter, "She slipped a slip? She stole a stole?".

You are speaking of the word categorically (globally referring to human emotions). People who accuse films of being "sentimental," IMO, are typically using it in a narrower (normative) sense (of going past the mark of what is effective, appropriate, artful, etc.).



My pants ran off with an antelope.
In this thread, it seems as though the title prejudices the conclusion. "Sentimentality" is a loaded term, one that suggests that the emotions portrayed are fake, cheap, or manipulative. How do we distinguish between heartfelt emotion, nostalgia, memory and sentimentality? If I remember Christmas dinner with my Granny, is that sentimentality? I don't know the answer myself, except whether the viewer liked the movie, for whatever reason.
Different strokes for different folks?
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The Guy Who Sees Movies
Words often have more than one meaning. I might object to an object on my lawn. I might try to table a discussion about buying a table. As one movie had a bemused investigator ask a clerk regarding an alleged shoplifter, "She slipped a slip? She stole a stole?".

You are speaking of the word categorically (globally referring to human emotions). People who accuse films of being "sentimental," IMO, are typically using it in a narrower (normative) sense (of going past the mark of what is effective, appropriate, artful, etc.).
Even that "depends". Based on personal experience with demonstrative families, I've seen plenty of "sentiments" that go way past the coolness of a lot of movies. Those folks didn't care whether it was artful and, if it were in a movie, It would be called excessive, even it it's true for those folks. Appropriate is another one of those words that depends on where you came from.



Even that "depends". Based on personal experience with demonstrative families, I've seen plenty of "sentiments" that go way past the coolness of a lot of movies. Those folks didn't care whether it was artful and, if it were in a movie, It would be called excessive, even it it's true for those folks. Appropriate is another one of those words that depends on where you came from.
Again, I do not deny that such people exist (although I suspect that they are in a minority). And again, this is why I have proposed that a clarifying question be asked of one who makes the accusation of "sentimentality."



Because that's the most popular genre in the recent decades?

Therefore, using classic comedies for the Golden Age of Hollywood seems like an apt comparison, imho

The main point is that popular movies have done this in the past, too. Doesn't seem like anything new, to me.
It's not that it's never been done before, it's the degree to which it's being done. Obviously snark and being self-referential aren't new, but the ratio of sincerity to sarcasm is really skewed right now in big movies. As the YouTuber argues (and I agree personally), being sarcastic/snarky all the time means that the movies don't believably build stakes (emotional or otherwise).



In this thread, it seems as though the title prejudices the conclusion. "Sentimentality" is a loaded term, one that suggests that the emotions portrayed are fake, cheap, or manipulative. How do we distinguish between heartfelt emotion, nostalgia, memory and sentimentality? If I remember Christmas dinner with my Granny, is that sentimentality? I don't know the answer myself, except whether the viewer liked the movie, for whatever reason.
To be fair, another user on a different site pointed out to me that the academic definition of sentimentality is excessive emotion, which does technically imply a flaw. As Corax said though, words can often have their meanings bent. I mainly just meant sentiment as in "emotional", for what it's worth.
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