Women in Male Dominated Sports - Your Thoughts?

Ok. Not so sure this subject is as exciting to others as it is to me at midnight, so bear with me here. I may even hate myself in the morning for posting what I realize later is drivel - who knows? Isnt life hard? So. I'm randomly replying to a thread about martial arts when I post this:

And. It got me thinking. Female boxing. Why? Seriously. Why? Hilary Swank's character got her brains beat out. And in some way, it was glorified. And in some way, that bothers me. Why? Because I'm confused about the idea of a person wanting to have their face beat in, male or female. I know guys who box in amatuer fights, and I dont understand the appeal. I understand money, and I understand a man being willing to get his face beat in for money, but I dont understand a girl who is willing to get her face beat in for money, nor the appeal of watching it happen.

Boxing makes me uncomfortable. Female boxing downright disturbs me.

And to wrap this up (since I'm rambling), the other thing I saw recently that unsettled me was a nationally televised story on a 6 foot 12 year old girl who plays basketball for her school.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4923635

Evidently, due to her size, she far outstripped the girls team - they placed her on the boys team in an attempt to give her some competition (and, no doubt, to give the girl's league a break). Well, this girl is dominating the 12 year old boys teams, such that the parents of the schools complained, and had the girl removed from the male team and placed back on the girls team.

Wanna know the technicality? Because she is a girl, and the rules state that the team cannot be Co-Ed.

If you think that is what I find upsetting, you'd be wrong. Maybe I'm slightly sexist, but that bothers me none at all. If I had a 12 year old boy that was being dominated in sports by a 6 foot girl his age, I'd complain to, and have her promptly removed back to the girls team, if only to preserve his (pre)pubescent psyche from the demoralization.

Here's the thing, though. The media caught this one, and instead of being handled by the parents and the school, it became a nationally televised event, complete with them taking the 12 year old on national tv and making a huge deal about the fact that she happened to say she wanted to play for the NBA as opposed to the WNBA. Me? I think the poor little thing was shell-shocked from all the attention, a little shy, and who wouldnt say "NBA?" But the interviewer latched on to that like a leech, and made a huge deal about how she may be the first woman to break the gender barrier of the sport, yadda, yadda.

I was taken aback. I really was. I was taken aback at this shameless and public exploitation of a 12 year old. Give me a break - am I to really believe that a 12 year old is concerned with breaking adult gender barriers? Please. You could earn a college degree in the time it will take her to earn a driver's license! That child is an open book, and already her parents and the media are writing gender resentment on her pages.

And here's the thing. There really ARE gender barriers, and there really are areas of concern - but in this case, I would say they are making a mountain out of a molehill: the girl is 6 feet tall - what she needs is NOT to play with 4 feet tall boys - what she needs is to play with high school or college age students who are her size. A few facials by those girls will bring her down a few pegs, give her (and her parents) a dose of realism and perspective, and keep everyone happy. Because lets face it - for now, she's a novelty, but unless she puts on another 2 feet, she will only take her place beside giants....in the WNBA.

[/rant]


My rants aside - any thoughts on the subject?

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something witty goes here......

I know nothing of this subject, but I trust you to tell me the truth, so I believe what you say and I agree with you. Of course, I try to pay almost NO attention to "news" because "newscasters" are some of the most skewed BS artists I've ever found in my life.

Yep, if she was my daughter, she'd stay away from the "news" and she'd try to grow up. That's for sure. I hope she gets a chance to grow up, myself. I find this separate from my rave review of National Velvet at my Top 100.

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It's what you learn after you know it all that counts. - John Wooden
My IMDb page

I know that over here, Primary school age kids (the under 12s) play mixed team sports, usually football (or Soccer-Beckham-ball for those not blessed with a native understanding of the Beautiful Game).

That girls tend to have their initial growth spurt before the boys no doubt helps them in the early stages. As far as I know, competitive sport is segregated when they move to secondary school, unless it's pretend sports (ie, games in disguise) like chess or causing the substitute teacher to wet themselves.

There are a pair of young female golfists over here (they're 12 or 13 I think, and twins) who are winning all before them on the Irish amateur adult women's tour. They're gonne be amazingly good if they maintain their performance arc but history is littered with 'next big things' who succumbed to such unprofessional temptations like hanging out with their friends, trying to do well in school and becomming a well-adjusted member of the human race...

On a similar note, I don't hear much about that other young golfist lady who was supposed to dominate the sport. Her name is Michelle Xbox, or something.

The moral, as is my wont, can be found in Gregory's Girl (1981, Bill Forsyth) - Dee Hepburn may well have set the boys' hearts racing but I always fancied Clare Grogan.

Still do, actually.

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"Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how the Tatty 100 is done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves." - Brendan Behan

I think in this case, since the person in question is twelve years old, then caution is definitely warranted with regard to her well being.

If we're speaking about grown women in male dominated sports then I don't have any issues with it at all. I'm a HUGE boxing and MMA (mixed Martial Arts) fan and really used to look forward to watching Lucia Rijker (who played Blue Bear in Million Dollar Baby) in the ring.

Just this past weekend a woman, Gina Carano (aka Crush on American Gladiators) got top billing in an MMA bout on CBS and showed a great display of skill on the mat.

I say if a woman wants to compete who's to stop her?

Carano vs Young:



Neither looks defenseless to me

Ali's daughter boxes, doesn't she? I'm a big boxing fan but haven't seen much from the female side of the sport.

Of course, there's Danica Patrick, a woman making her way in one of the most macho sports around. I remember Michele Mouton as a world class rally driver, from my youth, and a Scotswoman who's name escapes me now.

(EDIT: Louise Aitkin-Walker, thanks Google!)



In the 5 or 6 hours I searched Google Images, the above picture was one of the few that actually show her in her 'work' clothes, however. I'm off to do more research!

A noble pursuit

Carano, who I've referenced above, is actually in talks with Leila Ali about a possible boxing match. Carano'll have her hands full in a boxing style match with Ali as she won't be able to rely on any kicks/holds/submissions. Ali is a power puncher with a ton of natural destructive ability. I hope they put it together.

Women give birth to people and apparently it hurts like hell. So I think they can handle male dominated sports as well.

Meanwhile, although being a very non-violent person, I'll have to admit that I'm a huge fan of MMA, K1, UFC, pro boxing and so forth. I think I've seen all of Kimbo's fights on Youtube. I can't understand why I like watching regulated violence so much since I know that it's just a modern form of gladiatorial games and that the participants pay a high price. Should I be ashamed?

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The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

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They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.

I'm not ashamed.

To me, MMA in particular is much like a chess match. Violence is a part of it but strategy, skill, athletic prowess etc are much more important.

By the by, James Thompson really tested Kimbo this past weekend. He's a great brawler but a seasoned MMA fighter would make pretty short work of him in my opinion.

Sounds a bit like Rocky versus Thunder Lips to me... but I would still watch it.

Anyway, Danica is alright but if you want a lady who is already pretty successful check out Ashley Force. She has already won Rookie of the year in her sport, which to me is a much bigger accomplishment than simply turning left like they do on most race tracks. Oh yeah, she's pretty easy on the eyes too.



Oh, and so are her sister's, yeah that's right I said sister's.

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We are both the source of the problem and the solution, yet we do not see ourselves in this light...

Danica is way cool - I wasnt aware of any other women in the sport - but then, I'm not really into racing, I found out about Danica when browsing a Scotsmans Guide at work once - apparently she was the front-woman for Argent Mortgage.

I later read that some of the guys are complaining that her weight (or lack thereof ) is automatic handicap for her, and the lightness is a reason she beats them.


I dont want anyone to think I am against co-ed sports - I'm not. I'm just a little scared of boxing and slightly uncomfortable with using children for huge media battles. If you're grown and you want to do it - by all means.

Weight is, funnily enough, a big factor in motor racing. David Coulthard's recent autobiography makes frequent mention of him starving himself in order to bring the total weight of the car down. This led eventually to bulimia. Quite a few people in Formula 1 are in favour of having a minimum driver weight - if someone is under that weight the car is given ballast to bring it up to the mark.

This season has seen Robert Kubica return to the grid much lighter (and faster). The guy looks unwell, though...

The flip side of this is Nigel Mansell's hilarious comeback with McLaren in the 90s - his arse was too big to fit in the car and it had to be redesigned with the season already uinderway.

When I was teaching I had a boy in my class who was signed by a Premier League football club - he was 9. A great little player, it has to be said, and one who didn't rely on a height and strength advantage over his peers (as is usually the case at that age). That kid had pure skill on the ball.

He'd be pushing 20 by now and I can't remember the guy's name, otherwise I'd be frantically searching team rosters and claiming credit in the slim chance that he made it beyond youth level...

Hey Tatty - wouldnt weight be the same issue with Jockeys? I've never paid close attention to horseracing, but I've always assumed most Jockeys are men - although I'd bet there are some women Jockeys in the sport. Anybody know?

As to size/weight advantage, it really is an issue, because there are those people who have JUST size/weight and are not "better" on a skill-level. There are also people who have the size/weight advantage and have outstanding skill. Then you have people who are average size/weight and who have outstanding skill. And then you have the people who are average size/weight that have no skill. Category #4 people are spectators. Category #3 people are true athletes. Category #2 people are "Super" Athletes. Category #1 people are average or subpar athletes with an advantage/handicap.

Shaq is a Category #1, imho.

I'm not a huge expert on horse racing but I'm pretty sure that there's a minimum weight involved for the jockeys - if they're under that weight then ballast is added to the horses. I can definitly remember jockeys being interveiwed after retirement and talking about regimes of starving (and weight-loss pills, legal or otherwise) and the subsequent eating disorders.

As far as I know the vast majority of jockeys are men (and as far as I can see, little Irish blokes, at that) but I'm betting that this is down to tradition/conception rather than any physical advantage.

I mentioned something similar to McLaren boss Ron Dennis a year ago (honest! *cough*). I consider myself a fantastically talanted driver but am handicapped by being 6' 2" and 15 stone. He ended up hiring a little guy called Hamilton, wonder what happened to him?

ok. so apparently the day has come where we LAUD mediocrity. I cant believe they are actually punishing this little boy for being TOO GOOD.

I mean, even though I knew he was right, I was a little irritated with one of my pilot instructors for belittling the educational system of today --- apparently, he feels that the whole "positive reinforcement" is a failed system where we give little children a pat on the back and a Winner's Medal for calculating that 2+2=5.

His view was to tell them they suck. A little extreme, I know. This is why he irritated me. I understood his point, but I did think he was a little radical.


This story makes me reconsider.

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns

Good god, what's next? I mean, granted, I know that in the rat race of corporate america, and no doubt corprate anywhere, there is a deeply competitive culture that advocates deep-sixing your adversary, or sabotaging your adversary (excuse me while I puke over this philosophy - but then, hey - Im the one now unemployed, so go figure ), even when you KNOW your adversary is your better. I mean, you KNOW it. Everyone KNOWS it. And instead of just accepting it, you go behind the scenes and screw something up. y'know. like ripping the pages out of the only book in the library that has the legal precedent that EVERY OTHER STUDENT NEEDS TO FIND to get an A. So yeah. Youre complete slime, and you've just ensured that you are the only student to get the A.

Why? Because you've unbalanced the playing field. You've thrown off the scale by adding a greater burden on all others than the burden placed on you. By doing so, you've not only sabotaged everyone else, you made sure that you will win.

And you know what else? You made sure that the person in the place of leadership and power is not the best person for the job. Not the kind of guy/girl that can actually win and hold the position on skill or ability alone. You've actually weakened your organization, your team, your group.

Because you've replaced Greatness with Mediocrity.

Is this what we've become? No. I get it. I know that we deal with this adults in the Cold Cruel World.

What I didnt know was that we bring this same ugliness, this same pettiness, this same self-serving, bass-ackwards abortion of anything good into the lives of small children. Children who havent even developed a real sense of self.

This is what we're teaching our children these days?

1. Its is bad to be good.
2. It is really bad to be really good.
3. You suck if you are really good.
4. Dont be excellent. Nothing good comes of it. You will be punished. Your friends will be punished. Your family will be punished.
5. If you're excellent, if you excel your peers, you will be punished.
6. Adults dont really want you to excel. At least dont be better or smarter than their child in something that THEY control. You will be punished.
7. Average is best. Great is bad. Excellence is anathema - you dirty little DEMON!
8. Just be average. Cant you see that you're making all the other kids feel bad by being so great??
9. Excellent children arent welcome here (unless they're the bosses/coaches/company execs kid), or unless they play on the team we tell them to play on (read: unless we control them).

Are we really becoming a society where we deep-six CHILDREN too?

How about they all get a F for poor sportsmanship and being poor losers (I mad so I take my bat and ball and go home? What are we? Children??)? Sue me, I thought teaching them good morals and sportsmanship was one of the reasons for child sports too.

Just read the story you posted Mack, but being the cynic I am I suspect there's more behind what they've published.

It looks like what that kid is being taught by his mum is that it's ok to scream and shout and call the police if you don't get your own way!
If the kid's mother kicked off threatening people and employing an attorney, then she also has the responsibility of blowing the whole situation up and upsetting her own child even further. In my experience as a parent when situations happen to upset your kids you're best off downplaying it cos if you make a big deal out of stuff you risk letting your kids see that you're upset too, and that's really bad for little kids.
I don't know anything about baseball, but couldn't she approach a proper club and get some training for him? something that could occupy him till he's old enough to play with bigger players?

What's on your mind?

I agree.
I have never been to a professional prizefight, but people have told me, if you get a seat up close to the ring, and the two boxers are really going at it, it's very violent.
Same with tackle football.
Stand there during a practice scrimmage, and listen to the collisions and the other sounds that go with it.
It makes an impression on you.
OK.
Looks like they tried to fix the problem.
But what about the wins and losses?
They screwed them up, I would assume.
They can attempt to change the rules for the next season, not during the current one.
She should play on the girls team, not the boys.
The other girls teams should see it as a challenge, and make the best of it.
In high school in Southern California, we have co-ed badminton.

• girls can wrestle on the boy's team.
• girls can play tackle football on the boy's team.
• can boys play girls softball? I don't know.
• we had girls playing boys water polo, until they made it a girls only sport for them.

If the tall girl was legally eligible to play in the girl's basketball league,they should have left it alone.

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"If you can't be funny be interesting."
Harold Ross

I'll be honest, I haven't read any of the posts in this thread because I'm a lazy chauvinist. Sorry Mack and Slug and everyone else. You guys probably put a lot of thought and effort into these posts, but Danica Patrick doesn't interest me at all. I did read the thread's title, though, and I'm just gonna say the WNBA sucks. It's downright unwatchable. I don't know if any of the above posts were used to defend (or even mention) the WNBA, but I think it's a boring league and no one could say anything to change my mind. I am a huh-yuge sports fan and I can definitely watch and enjoy the women's college basketball tourney. But women in pro ball?

I am not interested

I definitely see your point(s), and I was having this discussion with someone else, and decided that since I dont have children, maybe I'm not the best to judge this. Also, having skipped an entire bloc of basic education, it would be somewhat hypocritical of me to dogmatically suggest that all advanced children be forced/allowed to compete on the same level as the others.

Ok. Fair enough.

But I do think that one of three things is happening: we are seeing a trend of media overblown-ness in these stories; we are seeing scattered incidents where parents/coaches are behaving selfishly; or we are seeing a consistent lack of phenom-escalation in sports specifically.

Because I think there is a forum for educational/academic graduation of advanced children. Why wouldnt that same forum for systematic advancement based on skill level not also apply in the sports arena?

...oh wait. It does apply .... if you're a high school student being drafted for the NBA.

In this case, you're right, we dont have all the facts. But I think that you are all making a basic assumption that you cant just make: how can you be sure that there WAS a next level into which this boy could have advanced? I have played summer league baseball, and depending on where you are located and how rural the location is, some leagues only go to certain ages. Granted, often there are other leagues for older children, but in some cases, there are not.

What then? In that sort of a vacuum of sporting outlets, what mechanism allows children like this to also be allowed to play at that point, or do we just give them a bench spot where they, too, can clap with the cheerleaders? Back the team with the rest of the spectators?

I would have liked to see the following:
1. If the boy is advanced, the league and his parents should have advanced him to the next level based on his skill set. Assuming there IS a next level.
2. If there ISNT a next level in this league - granted, his parents could/should look into getting him on some other team/league in the surrounding area. But barring that, if none exists, I dont agree that its fair that he should be benched or worse, fired, so-to-speak.

Because that would be a horrible waste of talent, and essentially, without benefit of other outlets, you are basically burying a boy like that by taking away the only opportunity he has to play.

jeez of course I agree it's a horrible waste of talent if there's nowhere to go for this kid, but if you have a one in a million kid like that then your own duty is to find somewhere for him to advance his talents. There should be just as much validity given to gifted children in sports as there is in academic subjects imo. I'm not sure that works in my country (UK) though, as rightfully we have to spend a lot on kids from the other end of the spectrum

Being neglectfully uncompetitive meself, I'd have been lost if one of my boys would've been an athletic or an academic monster. I remember the headmaster at my eldest's primary school complaining to me that my son refused to go to him to collect any gold stars given to him by the teacher on the basis that they were only bits of sticky paper