Sex scenes (not “chaste”)

I rarely walk away from a good film wishing I'd seen a soft-core sex scene between the leads, either.

I’m not saying I go around seeking them out. But if there is a sex scene, the described “from the chest up” approach does jar to me. I guess I still remember the “good old” days. And to me it kind of makes sense, if you have a sex scene, to do it properly.

I think that such scenes are rare in any decade, and I honestly haven't felt that most sex scenes from the 80s/90s had character development as a genuine objective. I'd be curious about 10 or so films that you think fit the criteria you're looking for. The flip side, like I said before, is that I don't walk out of many films thinking that what they were really missing was a sex scene or that the scenes that do exist (like in Annihilation or Carol) needed to be more explicit to make their point.

Broadening your scope to television might get you more of what you are after.

Thank you. The whole thing is half in jest, I’m not hellbent on finding me some good sex scenes, you know (though that would be nice). Was just wondering if they are still out there.

I think that they are certainly still out there, and especially in independent films and especially in the LGBT+ space where explicit sexual interactions (and specifically sexy or joyful sexual interactions) have been thin on the ground until semi-recently. I mean, Shortbus was wall-to-wall unsimulated sex (straight and gay), as was 9 Songs (though this one is a straight couple).

It is probably true that films that might have formerly existed in the R-rated space are now sometimes pitched at more of a PG-13 level. There's an alternate reality where an R-rated Jack Reacher film has a sex scene but also . . . why? Reacher having sex with the lead female character is done to establish his manliness, not actually advance the plot. (And if you've never read the books, in each and every one he has sex with whichever women 20 years his junior is most at hand, including in one book the daughter of his best friend, LOL).

Sometimes the scene serves the needs of the narrative or is just a bit of fun which is icing on the cake for a large portion of the audience. Of course, the internet is overloaded with icing, for free, and most people just skip the cake. Aaaaaand I regret my metaphor even as a type this (phrasing!). So the question is, what is the niche for more prurient scenes?



Even that question is arguably too broad. Doing it right raises the question of what you're trying to do. There is that fight scene, for example, in Eastern Promises in which Viggo fights butt naked to emphasize his vulnerability. I respect the choice and am not offended by the swinging dong. The bed room is also a scene of vulnerability and can be exploited for the same purpose (e.g., showing sexual dysfunction or unkind words being exchanged in an intimate moment). If we're not doing sex simply for titillation, but to drive the needs of the plot, there are a lot of legit cases to consider, right? For another example, the "joke" sex scene in Jackie Brown works (ex con doesn't last long with surfer girl), because it is humorous and realistic that a middle-aged man fresh out of the joint would not be a majestic sexual moment. And it also serves the plot in that the intimacy allows Melanie to truly emasculate and taunt Louis later on in the film.



On the other hand, if we're doing sex for the sake of being sexy, then we're more limited. The scene is probably not there as masturbation material (the old "rewind the VHS tape" moment), because as Avenue Q taught us the internet is for porn. So the scene is there for arousal, but not complete arousal. It is a moment of heightened stimulation. And in this window, it's harder to do wedge in a classic sex scene, especially if you're trying to land an MPAA rating that will maximize a wide audience. I think the zone here is less "sexuality" and more "sensuality" - that feeling of seduction and intimacy rather than the depiction of it. There is a space for it, but I think it is probably hard to stick the landing now and that producers stick with the vices they can safely get away with depicting (e.g., hyper-violence).



Also, I think a lot of your frustration probably emerges from how conventionally these scenes are shot. Takoma nailed this aspect in a prior post. These scenes are all done in a very particular way which makes them a bit staid, no matter how much flesh is exposed. I think the most radical thing a film could do is just show people having realistic sex (e.g., no acrobatics) without the conventional blocking and camera angles and so on. Shoot it as if it is any other scene and that might be interesting.

Also, speaking of the lack of sexuality in modern movies, this thread reminds me of a very interesting article I read on the subject once:

Everyone Is Beautiful, But No Is Horny


What do you guys think?

I think you are definitely right about how it’s been watered down, I can’t think of examples but definitely noticed a trend to cut aways and new and different gimmicks used to imply what’s happened or happening. There was one in particular I can’t remember what is was which made me laugh out loud and then really thought, yeah it’s changed.. A lot of modern films people mentioned are obscure/non English language and Im thinking more main stream and Hollywood. I actually prefer it as somebody else mentioned.

How much sex do we want in our PG13 superhero movies? Pepper and Tony kiss, isn't that enough to convey that our superhero likes a lady? It's not like Lois Lane was giving Clark Kent lap dances back in the day.

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Agreed.

I'm skimming the R-rated movies that I've watched that have been released since 2015 and plenty of them have sex scenes or characters displaying lust.

Killing of a Sacred Deer
Deadpool
Palm Springs
Red Sparrow
Neon Demon
Under the Silver Lake
Booksmart
Saint Maude
Atomic Blonde

I'd consider all of the above to be large or large-ish releases.

Then looking at movies I've seen from the 80s/90s, and most of them don't have sex scenes or anything I'd deem explicit.

I do think that there used to be a lot more casual male horniness content in films (including PG or PG-13 rated films): usually in the form of topless women. But I'd hardly say that the nude pin-up in Die Hard or the woman who is walked in on naked is doing much for character development.

Plus, if we start adding sex scenes to Marvel films they will all be a billion hours long.

Well, it depends, I would beg to differ. Statistically most 13-year-olds now will have engaged in some form of sexual activity (I can get stats, yes), so all this does is propagates the gap between what they do & see on screens. There is no need for lap dances, but again, if sex is shown, that is a choice, as is showing it from the chest up. Not showing sex is also an option - but what is the point of half-assing things? Even Moonrise Kingdom, where the kids are 12, is explicit about portraying sexuality where it needs to be (as with dance on the beach where the girl touches the boy). Again, that, I think, is fairly explicit when we’re talking about 12-year-olds and takes guts, unlike the “chest up” angle.

I agree, and great article. The horniness is entirely missing. And I suppose people will say it is “not needed”, but I think it really says a lot for the general “asexual turn”.

Of course. I see your point re Jackie Brown, and while the question is certainly broader than what I originally posed, I do think the Jackie Brown version also contributes to making sex “anything but” arousing.

A few years ago, everyone was obsessed with the short story Cat Person by Kristen Roupenian, which was published in The New Yorker. It had, in short, the most disgusting sex scene I’ve ever seen/read anywhere (and I don’t mean “disgusting” in a good way). I suppose that was intended as humorous. I attended a talk with Roupenian around 2019 and the whole experience, with her challenging the audience in the vein of “raise your hand if you’ve never had bad sex” (spoilers: some people did!), was beyond mad. She challenged those who raised their hands, came over and essentially tried to convince people that they were being delusional and in denial and if they thought long and hard, they’d realise the sex they thought of as so great would turn out to have been terrible. It was stranger than fiction. And again, I think that talk was really emblematic of the issue: this woman was hell bent on convincing the audience that good, arousing sex didn’t happen. I feel that the talk about old Hollywood sex scenes being “unrealistically filled with pleasure/orgasms/acrobatics or whatnot” is in the same vein. After all, some people do have great sex lives and orgasm many times a week, that’s not in itself unrealistic! But the shift seems to be towards celebrating the “bad” or the non-existent over acknowledging the good.

Yes, there used to historically be an imbalance between unrealistically well-choreographed sex scenes where all parties experience supreme ecstasy and what “really happens”. But I do think, as you say below,

that a good sex scene is for some form of arousal. I see an irony in the fact that everyone goes out of their way to focus on “bad sex” where no such state of arousal is obtained either by the participants or by the audience, but the “successful” sex scenes which feel, yes, arousing, are far and few between and made “chaste” on top of that.

Stuff like Moonrise Kingdom definitely succeeds via sensuality over sexuality.

P.S. the metaphor was good enough imo 😃

Also remember the scene in Eastern Promises, it’s great, but I think the use of nudity to channel vulnerability is a bit of a different beast.

Yes, that is true. Takoma has an uncanny ability to pinpoint what I am getting at better than I could have. Also on that note, I agree that for what that’s worth, LGBT sex scenes have been much hotter than “mainstream” sex for a good decade.

Dogme 95 sex scenes probably would make things more interesting, but I fear it would go into Cat Person territory and focus on all the “bad” and “funny” things over anything good, exciting and pleasurable.

I maintain that Tony Stark is about as horny as I need a superhero to be. If you're asking for more Watchmen-type films that's fine, but I was referring specifically to Stu's article.

Actually my first response was to the excerpt that he posted. I have since read the article, and wow that thing is all over the place. I wasn't even sure what point she was making by the end of it.

Understood.

I've read some but not all of this thread and I think the main point/problem/thing to remember is how the US is no longer the main audience. Worldwide take is far more important now than it was pre-00's and so you need to make sure your film can be seen and be well thought of in places where that level of sexuality/nudity isn't acceptable. Considering how risk adverse Hollywood is and how 'corporate' the whole place is (as well as the exhibition market) I think this all leads to what we're seeing. There's little nudity, few movie stars because the franchises/properties are the star now (was Will Smith the last real movie star created?) and fewer risks.

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Yet the LGBT scenes, which China will cut out in their entirety (as well as different demographics), are totally cool. That doesn’t seem to be an impediment.

It's sad and kinda disgusting that after all the progress that's been made with LGBT representation in movies the US are suddenly taking several steps backwards by catering to the Chinese government's tastes, not making a single peep if films are subjected to homophobic censorship.

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Well, companies are out for money. It's not the USA the country being cool with it. It's the big film companies. Also: see John Cena shakily apologizing to China for acknowledging the existence of Taiwan. Money money money.

I also feel as if it's common to read in trivia sections of films from the 80s/90s that this country or that country cut out sex scenes (gay or straight) when they were released there.

How about enough sexuality on the whole so that the characters in them begin feeling like real people in that regard, as opposed to sanitized corporate automatons? I mean, you mention Lois & Clark as a counterpoint, but there was still a noticable, relatable, welcome sexual tension between them in the original Superman, and that movie achieved that without going anywhere close to full-on R territory, and it did this without any lapdances to boot: