A Song of Ice and Fire (SPOILERS)

As promised, this thread is devoted to discussion of the popular A Song of Ice and Fire book series by George R.R. Martin, specifically those who have already finished every entry in the series thus far.

Please note that spoiler tags are NOT required in this thread: everything is fair game. So if you haven't yet finished the books, you may want to steer clear until you have.

If you haven't read the books but are currently following the HBO series Game of Thrones, feel free to discuss the episodes in our current thread on Season Three HERE.

Questions to get us going:

Is the Hound really dead?

Is Jon Snow really dead?

Is Stannis Baratheon really dead?

What do you think is going to happen at Castle Black?

Probably. I don't see any reason to question the wandering septon who said he buried him, as he was in pretty terrible shape when Arya abandoned him.

But if he truly is dead, that makes for a really disappointing and unsatisfying end to a really great character. I guess that's Martin's point, though: sometimes people die before they get to where they're going. I just wish he had stuck around a bit longer. Who knows? Maybe he'll turn up yet.

Like hell. The real question is: what condition will he be in? Obviously he'll be grievously wounded, but another possibility is that he'll die and be reborn as Azor Ahai. The requisite salt and smoke is there at the end (his "smoking" wounds and Bowen Marsh's tears). Probably a long shot, but hey, it's possible.

Unknown. One of the Winds of Winter preview chapters depicts Stannis in camp prior to the battle for Winterfell, so that makes me believe that it actually precedes Ramsay Bolton's letter to Jon Snow. I don't see how Ramsay would know about Stannis' sword, Lightbringer, unless he defeated the man. But even if he's lying, I don't see why he would want to draw Jon Snow and whatever army he might muster to join Stannis' forces. If Stannis really is dead, that would be a huge surprise... though not terribly surprising given his decision to strike against Winterfell in those weather conditions.

Jon has very powerful friends in Tormund Giantsbane and Melisandre. My guess is the fight will likely turn against the Night's Watch and Selyse and her knights, and many will be killed or captured. Tormund and Melisandre will assume control of Castle Black, likely while Jon is incapacitated.

This a good place to start, nice collection of predominant theories - http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...m-of-theories/

1) No. Clues about the GraveDigger aside, i'd like him to champion against "Ser Robert Strong" (who i'm sure we all know is Gregor). Nice thematic climax to the Clegane's brothers.

2) I think the prologue with Varymr was meant to be a clue. Martin has probably played the main character dies card a few too many times for JS to stay dead.

3) The 'Pink Letter' had me completely baffled, need a re-read to try and decide what it means

4) Disarray till Dany arrives.


By big theory is that Bran is in league with/will become the Great Other and will be taken to the dark side. Jojen paste, Bloodraven all seems too ominous. Books aren't fresh for concise evidence but got the strong feeling during his chapters he'd be controlling the Others.

Other question should be who are the 3 heads of the Dragons?

Who is Azor Azhai?

__________________

So you're suggesting that Jon's "body" might be dead, but his consciousness will drift elsewhere, perhaps to Ghost? Interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

Interesting theory here, too. I kinda went the opposite way: I'm imagining that Bran will discover a way to actually communicate with those he can see or sense through the weirwoods, making him something of a "dispatcher" when it comes to the ultimate fight against the Great Other and his minions. I like this idea that when it comes to that fight, all of the remaining Stark children will somehow be in a position to each serve vital roles.

Daenerys Targaryen. Jon Snow. Aegon Targaryen. Those are, in essence, the only three Targaryens left (assuming Jon is a product of Rhaegar and Lyanna).

I think it's pretty clear from Melisandre's visions that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai. When looking to the fires for signs of Azor, all she sees is swirling snow and Jon himself. And his own dream of standing on the wall striking down frenemies with a flaming sword... seems to be a good indicator. And his "death" comes, as I said, from salt (Bowen Marsh's tears) and smoke (his smoking wounds). I think Jon's going to rise as Azor Ahai in The Winds of Winter.

Something else I've kicked around, though: Daenerys and Jon may, together, be Azor Ahai. These two characters are obviously linked in some way and her true birth occurred under the comet that would herald the coming of Azor Ahai at the smoky, salty castle of Dragonstone. Pretty strong connection there, too.

I just read all the Gravedigger stuff. Compelling theory (especially the note about his size, his affinity for dogs, and his possession of Sandor's notoriously picky horse, Stranger). But I'm still not sold.

(1) Sandor was in a bad way when Arya left him, so he would have needed some measure major assistance from someone (the Elder Brother or whoever). It wouldn't have been a simple measure of a poltice or two. I guess it's possible that he "died" and was "sent back" by the Red God or something like that, but that would be a seriously and, frankly, laughable development.

(2) The Gravedigger doesn't speak in any way that resembles the Hound. I understand that if some kind of physical/spiritual transformation took place, he would be noticeably different. But he'd still be the same man and old habits die hard. I can see him dropping the swearing and the anger, but I can't believe that his personality and speech patterns would come so far in such a short amount of time.

(3) Speaking of time, how much time passed? The Hound purportedly dies at the end of A Storm of Swords. Brienne meets the Gravedigger somewhere in the middle of A Feast for Crows. What is that? A couple weeks? A month or two? I don't know if such a comprehensive rehabilitation/transformation could take place in that time.

(4) Most importantly, Brienne doesn't note any burn wounds on the Gravedigger. I doubt that's something that could be "healed" (Thoros of Myr can't even "heal" the scars of Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn Stark). Those wounds would remain and Brienne would have heard about the Hound's infamous burn scars.

Still, I'm totally going home and re-reading this chapter tonight.

Was anyone else annoyed about the last episode? I didn't like how Daario came across, he is meant to be a lowborn badass but sounds like he was educated in Oxford, totally miscast him. The guy who played the Titan's bastard deserves to be cast as Daario, it's how I imagined him to be.

There was one other niggle, the whole Melisandre/Gendry sex scene. I know it's the sort of stuff HBO prides itself on but it takes away from Martin's image of the characters. First off, the two never meet in the books and I can understand the reason for cutting out some of the fat (Edric Storm and other bastards etc) but why reduce Melisandre's character to that of a sex crazed temptress, she is far more than.

Apart from those two problems I enjoyed the episode and the ending worked just fine. Not the best episode this season (that goes to the one with Dondarrion v The Hound) but another solid effort, sometimes the show runners seem to lose the plot a bit but they always manage to bring it back.

I think that could be the case, I really liked Jon and his death was almost like a Shakespearean tragedy, all Cesar-ish in execution. I can understand Jon's spirit somehow finding a home in Ghost...and what role will the Wildling shape changer have to play??

Wrong thread, but no worries.

Agreed. Daario isn't really supposed to be some lean, young thing. He's a gruff, rough sellsword who's smarter and more cunning than average, but still no GQ lover type. That's why Daenerys is attracted to him: he is, in many ways, Khal Drogo with a rogue's personality. The actor who played the Titan's Bastard would have been a better fit (but still far from perfect).

He could have at least had the tri-forked beard...

Eh, I somewhat agree. I wrote the sex act off as proof of what Melisandre had said just a scene earlier: don't show the lamb the knife. The whole charade was meant to bring down his defenses, so it made sense. Melisandre knows that a woman has a powerful tool between her legs: one that men rarely can't resist. My issue with it, though, is that Melisandre doesn't seem to operate this way in the books. With the exception of her shadow baby assassin, she typically fights her battles in other ways. So it's definitely a deviation in character—one that I hope wasn't made simply for the sake of having another naked body to show off.

I think that may be a temporary condition. Most of the prologues seem to have some subtle relevance to the rest of the book. I think there most be some reason they went into the detail there.



I did some reading on the theories there too. That was just a niggling suspicion I had but I do really like the Jaime vs Bran post on there. Cementing a lot of what I thought. There's just something not right about Bloodraven and I think it would do justice in a Martin way to Bran's arc. To go from wanting to be a knight to be a leader, even with the Night.


I'm glad you didn't say Tyrion. A lot of people seem to think he's a secret Targ, which would be just a bit too contrived for me. Assume you believe him to the real Aegon then? I don't like the idea of JS being AA and Head of the Dragon, however. I wouldn't be surprised if Daario was one.



Melisandre isn't exactly reliable though. I wouldn't subscribe to any of her visions directly. There's lot of clues for him to be and you can tie the prophecy up there./

True. I actually thought, at the end of A Clash of Kings, that this same thing had happened to Bran. His final chapter in that book comes after spending a large portion of the book wondering if he and Rickon were killed by Theon. I didn't believe it for a second, but when that final chapter begins with Bran inside Summer, for a moment I thought the two had actually merged permanently. And I can't say I would have been bummed by that.

Nice point. I like that a lot.

Nah, Tyrion definitely isn't a Targaryen. That's just whacked-out reaching right there. He's a Lannister. And I do think Aegon is real. There's nothing to really doubt about it, especially when you consider that Varys himself believes the boy is genuine. That alone should indicate that he's the real deal.

Re: Daario. Is he really that important, do you think? I haven't sensed that he's got much standing in the overall story; he's simply a point of tension that's meant to complicate Dany's journey, I think. I don't see Martin violating the "sanctity," if you will, of only Targaryens riding dragons.

Fair point. Admittedly, her prophecies are moving targets. But she's occasionally right, too, so I think what she says can't be totally discounted. The fact that she sees these visions of Jon Snow and hasn't connected the dots makes me even more likely to believe them, ironically.

Okay, I re-read Brienne's chapter with the gravedigger. I was mistaken about who was speaking, as the gravedigger never talks to Brienne. The Elder Brother, the one who purportedly "buried" him, is the one who speaks. Also, the gravedigger and his silent brothers are described as "cowled," meaning they're wearing masks to hide their faces.

Seems to me Sandor Clegane is still kicking.

I want the forked beard and multi-coloured hair!

And yes, Melisandre is far more cerebral in the books andn o matter what you think of her faith, she isn't openly evil or destructive, she honestly believes she's doing the right thing. In the show she just seems like a bad person, manipulative, sex crazed and somewhat one dimensional.

I don't think The Hound would get killed off screen...or off page.

And Brienne brings up some important points. She returns to find Jaime, apparently surviving the attack in the previous book and tells the Kingslayer that one of Stark's daughters is alive.

Now I can't recall what happened in the earlier book but was she tricked into believing one of the girls was in the inn???

I don't remember. I know she stumbled across Gendry there (believing for a moment that it was Renly), but I can't recall if she was misled in some way. I believe Gendry and company were going to hold her there until the Brotherhood Without Banners could arrive—Lady Stoneheart wanted a word with Brienne—but Rorge and the rest of the Bloody Mummers arrived first.

In that lone A Dance With Dragons chapter, Brienne seems to be secretly leading Jaime to Lady Stoneheart, which was her only available option short of being put to death. However, it's not yet clear if she's going to stay the course or alert Jaime to the trap.

Need to reread these books, forgot about that 'one word' that saved Brienne. I don't think Stoneheart will be kicking around too long though.

Particularly with Mel, I do actually recall thinking that her vision was too clear and not understanding why she didn't pin it together.

Wasn't Daario meant to have Targ blood? The whole 'Mummers Dragon' seems to point against "Aegon" - read another theory about the real Aegon being Darkstar!

It's almost too perfect symmetry for the two Clegane's to be 'reborn' and fight. Forgot that Cersei' trail by combat is against the Church - who Sandor is with - imagine he'll be their champion against Gregor/Robert Strong.

He's Tyroshi.

Interesting. I guess it's possible, but it's a stretch. It's true that Gerold Dayne has Targaryen features, but House Dayne is the only Dornish house with ancestral Valyrian blood. Arthur Dayne also had Valyrian features. The Darkstar is also hated by Oberyn Martell and others, which would appear to disagree (on the surface at least) with his being Aegon, since his mother was Oberyn's sister. There would have to be some reason for that, I think.

Also, I'm not sure who would have smuggled Aegon to Starfall, or why Jon Connington would be mistaken about his Aegon, or why Varys would be mistaken about any of it. I don't think every one of these characters has to be someone from the past.

Agreed. I like this a lot.

It's settled. Need to reread, been few years now.

I thought varys would know / its illyrios son. There's so much rampant speculation you could apply theories anywhere. I'm 50/50 on young griff, could see it go either way.

Not targ blood then, maybe valyrian? Sure there was something that put him in contention as a head.

On a tangent, will jorah kiss Dany in the show? They've dropped the three betrayals t seems

Targaryen blood is everywhere, in some form or another. If you believe that Orys Baratheon, who slew the last storm king during Aegon's conquest, was actually Aegon the Conquerer's bastard half-brother, then all the Baratheons since then are kin to the Targaryens in much the same way the Karstarks are kin to the Starks.

The "mummer's dragon" probably was Quentyn Martell. He kept saying he had Targaryen blood (which he did) and therefore could tame the dragons, but he was wrong. Would the Darkstar fare any better? Would Daario, if he really did have a drop or two of Targaryen blood? Personally, I believe the three heads will, ultimately, be individuals of real meaning... whether they have Targaryen roots or not. That puts Barristan Selmy into play, as well as Varys and possibly even Jorah Mormont. But for now, I'm sticking with the true Targaryen trio of Dany, Jon, and Aegon.

By the way, as it currently stands, Aegon would have the best claim to the throne (assuming he's really Aegon), not Daenerys. And Jon technically has no claim to the throne, as he'd still be bastard-born... unless he marries Daenerys.

I think it'll happen. And I think that'll be the beginning of the end for Jorah's stay. In the first season, there are moments where it's very clear that he's reporting to spies from King's Landing. So they've set it up.

I didn't. But then my history isn't that deep! I think it was just Martin seemed to be giving him prominence than a sex object for Dany needs.

Well, unless you consider the Mummer in that to be Varys, then Aegon/Flaegon is his dragon. It could be a double bluff though. As I said, i'm 50/50 and i'm not sure there's enough to prove one way or the other as of yet. The Septa, though, there's a secret there.

I think the reason I might be thinking Daario is maybe because I agree with you. Those 3 would be the obvious heads but the JS is the other side of the Sea to actually fly the Dragon across. I kind of feel they'd get the Heads before coming to Westeros. Just don't see Selmy and Jorah in those roles. The other option is Tyrion, whether you credit the Mad King fathering him or not. I do like the poetry of him turning out to be the Knight Sansa always wished to marry. I see his climax in a triangle with LF and her.


They've set up his betrayal, definitely. His conversation with Selmy was him trying to glean what he knew and if his secret was safe. The question in books though, was which betrayal was he. I can see her finding out but now Daario is here and her infatuation with him his apparent, Jorah going in for the kill will seem a bit more rapey and less accidentally flirtatious from Dany.