Opinions on BFI 2022 Sight and Sound Poll

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Well, I don't have a top ten list currently, but here's a list of my current five star movies on Letterboxd, if you're interested: https://letterboxd.com/stusmallz/lis...-stars/detail/
So you haven't considered any movies from the last 14 years to be five stars. Get The Lighthouse out of the way and call me in the morning.



Sorry if I'm rude but I'm right
Quite good up until Chinatown and then you lost me. Thanks for sharing.
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Look, I'm not judging you - after all, I'm posting here myself, but maybe, just maybe, if you spent less time here and more time watching films, maybe, and I stress, maybe your taste would be of some value. Just a thought, ya know.




Were you not entertained?



My list would be the one I have in my top ten now, in no particular order:

Vertigo
Citizen Kane
Rio Bravo
Stagecoach
An Autumn Afternoon
PlayTime
A Man Escaped
Greed
Weekend
The Godfather: Part II


I'd love to include, if expanded to 25, and sticking to one per director:

Pursued
Written on the Wind
Intolerance
The Gold Rush
Sherlock, Jr.
Spring in a Small Town
The Umbrellas of Cherbourg
Uncle Boonmee Who Can Recall His Past Lives
Pulp Fiction
Man with a Movie Camera
L'Atalante
Chinatown
Ordet
Close-up
Mirror


I watched Jeanne Dielman a couple of nights ago and it would be in consideration for me too. My Latin America and Female director film watching still has a lot to be explored
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In short, I just hate the notion that anyone is supposed to live up to anyone else's expectations on what a list of their favorite films is. Our beliefs or our politics dont need to run interference on everything, and for a fan of an artist to think Hertzfeld should be approaching his list- making like she thinks it should be done, is obnoxious.



Having a larger swath of people vote is the way in which we enact change, if we want more representation on this ballot. Not having any kind of demand that we start tailoring our own feelings about art to reflect what someone else thinks it should reflect. Because, seriously, that's a bunch of shit.



If she wanted to engage with Hertzfeld about this (and I'll be clear about this one prejudice that definitely colors my irritation with her....I despise Twitter and the need some people have to interact with celebrities and other people they do not know and who they expect too much of), how about cutting it out with the 'disappointment' and simply ask him if there were any films by women (or whatever other thing she thought should be on his list) he considered. Open that discussion up without the notion that somehow Hertzfeld owed her a single solitary thing.

I'm not on Twitter. I think I just kind of accept that that casual type of interaction with semi-celebs happens on there and that's part of why they're on there. If they get bombarded with it a ridiculous amount all the time, then it becomes somewhat obnoxious. Given the outcomes and the zeitgeist, if a fan of his work didn't ask him that there, someone else would. I don't like the idea though that someone feels like they have to justify their ballot so often that they start to feel worn down and just decides to put different movies on it next time to avoid talking about it; which because we're all human.


In terms of "disappointed", it, like the word, "expect," has radically different meanings based on what the user means when it comes to degrees.
Expect ranges anywhere from, "I have no opinion on should, just, this is what I think will happen," to "this should happen," "I want this to happen," "I demand this should happen."


Disappointed goes from, what, "I'm a little bummed," to, "you should feel bad about this," to, "you need to change."


Without context, and the use of the qualifier, "a bit," I'm just going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume she was using the first one. People are allowed to express their emotional reaction on Twitter I believe. And yes, I hope it doesn't turn into an amplification that makes it feel like a cultural force to change their ways to the recipient (which I'm guessing is a real problem with Twitter) when it comes to expressing what they love, but in isolation, that one comment, like I said, doesn't strike me as unreasonable for someone to say.



Victim of The Night
I've thought about this a good bit and it has given me even more thought about the S&S list and the process of it, its imperfections and also why it's great.
I cannot name 10 films that stand above all others. I don't believe anyone can. There is no way No.10 and No.11 are not interchangeable. I honestly think, after trying this exercise at Minio's prompting, that, say, No.6 and No.21 are probably interchangeable. And, given that one doesn't actually rank them... I mean, I couldn't really say that 2001, for example, was better than The Hidden Fortress, or that Trois Couleur: Bleu (which would probably make my list if I could make one) is better than Cleo or The Passion Of Joan Of Arc. Whither The Wizard Of Oz, The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and Un Chien Andalou? How do I leave off whatever I might think of as the greatest film of an entire genre (in my growing list I've been generating since S&S came out last week, there are no comedies)?
And that ignores the issue that I would actually have to consider every movie that I've ever seen that could possibly be in consideration for this, which I can't because I have no list of everything I've ever seen. I know I've forgotten a lot of films even when chewing this over for the last several days.
And then there's the issue that I simply haven't seen all the movies. There are so many movies worthy of consideration. I haven't seen Touki Bouki. I'd never even heard of it til recently. Hell, I haven't seen Jeanne Dielman.
And what of my personal preferences and biases and prejudices? Where to they all belong in making such a list and where are they actually undermining such a list? For example, just from what I've typed above, it's obvious I have a personal bias for French filmmaking.
The only thing I can say is that I could generate at least half a dozen different lists and feel that they all reflect both ten of the best films ever made in my opinion and left off at least ten if not dozens of the best films of all time. The only constant would be that there are two films that would make every single version of my list and everyone who knows me knows what they are.

The Rocky Horror Picture Show
Paris, Texas


The other eight slots will be a constantly rotating group that will be different every day depending on what I had for lunch.



I've been telling people the best 10 films for years. No one listens to me, but I've been saying it nonetheless.
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5-time MoFo Award winner.



But would you say you're a bit surprised and a bit disappointed with that rating?

But are there any moral implications towards thinking Gladiator isn't a good movie? Or in thinking Gladiator sticks out like a sore thumb amongst all the other films Stu listed as his five star films.



If I was disappointed in Stu loving Gladiator (which I'm not), at worst he's going to come away believing I think a movie he likes is acid bath worthy (which I do). And maybe that hurts his feelings (but it hopefully doesn't as I have a long track record of taking the piss out of everything, which he has been able to observe get uniformly applied to pretty much everybody over the course of 15 years). But it doesn't imply that he is somehow aiding in the exclusion of female or minority representation in film. One of these things is considerably worse than the other. Especially considering, in the case of Hertzfeld, it seems as if it is something he likely was already wrestling with when he made his list (which he was not being given the benefit of having done by this woman's disappointment).


Now maybe this particular disappointed person already has a long relationship speaking with Hertzfeld through this format. Maybe they've had these discussions before. Maybe she has an established reason to be disappointed. If that was the case, I would retract my irritation. But if she just popped out of the ether to let him know that he let her down...because of a list of his favorite films...I think it's pretty fair to call her a pest, even if she hardly rises to the status of fatal irritant that so many on twitter (on both sides of the political spectrum) frequently do.



I've been 'disappointed' in the actions or tastes or beliefs of my favorite artists in the past as well. And what I do is give a little frown, or maybe discuss it with my friends that I expected more. At no point have I ever thought 'maybe I should confront them with this disappointment. Why weren't they considering what I thought when they made a list of their favorite films'.



The whole think strikes me as absurd. And I think that it is only because of how toxic these things can actually be that it becomes easy to overlook these smaller infractions, where we think our feelings and beliefs need to extend to everyone else because we have access to everybody these days. But it's just an unhealthy thing, whether it be for the offended or the offendee. And, as said, while much of my problem really has to do with Twitter culture in general, maybe its simply one of those things where I'm just out of touch. But, if so, it would also be the rare exception where I'm feeling pretty comfortable being old.



Gladiator!?!


*jumps head first into a vat of acid*
Well, you know you can read why I put it on the list in my review there...



Well, you know you can read why I put it on the list in my review there...

Oh, yes, I had no idea I could push a button and a review would magically appear.



The modern age is a wonder!


I can't at the moment, but I'll read tomorrow.



The trick is not minding
Finally got around to watching Jeanne Dielman, and it was amazing to watch. Watched it with a friend so we both were actively engaged in discussing the scenes and her actions throughout the film, which were subtle but worth noting.

Great film. Now, is it the #1 film? Probably not. Wouldn’t be mine, but I can see why it might be for someone. It’s not likely to leave my mind anytime soon, and reminded me of how I felt after watching Daisies and Stalker. Or the more recent watch of 8 1/2.



Victim of The Night
If I understand it correctly, the way the poll works Jeanne Dielman is No.1 simply because it appeared on the most ballots, not because anyone said it was better than Citizen Kane (not that it isn't I haven't seen it and wouldn't know), no?
And the more ballots that I see, the more that appears to be true.



If I understand it correctly, the way the poll works Jeanne Dielman is No.1 simply because it appeared on the most ballots, not because anyone said it was better than Citizen Kane (not that it isn't I haven't seen it and wouldn't know), no?
And the more ballots that I see, the more that appears to be true.

This is a discussion point that sometimes comes up between me and my stepdad, although it often involves music albums.



Based on The Sight and Sound list (and previous lists)
  1. Citizen Kane
  2. Singing The Rain
  3. The Godfather
  4. The Wizard of Oz
  5. The Shining
  6. City Lights
  7. Wild Strawberries
  8. 2001 A Space Odyssey
  9. ET The Extraterrestrial
  10. Ikiru



If I understand it correctly, the way the poll works Jeanne Dielman is No.1 simply because it appeared on the most ballots, not because anyone said it was better than Citizen Kane (not that it isn't I haven't seen it and wouldn't know), no?
And the more ballots that I see, the more that appears to be true.
Just out of curiosity, are you aware how the AFI best movies of all time ballots worked? (as a point of comparison)

WARNING: "AFI Ballot" spoilers below

The AFI somehow selected a list of 400 movie contenders. I'm not sure how they chose those 400 movies, but it sounded like it was the AFI deciding movies (I think their criteria was the general, "won awards, received critical praise, deemed culturally influential"). Also, keep in mind, the AFI is American-centric and only does US movies.

The ballot was basically people selecting their top 100 movies from that list of 400 movies (unordered). Users were to also list their top 5 movies, I believe. That was used for tie breakers. I believe users were allowed two write-in movies if they wanted to go off list.

I kind of greatly dislike everything about that, because at that point, I can't help but feel like that's encouraging the "checking boxes" mentality, where-as at the constraint of 10, you're expecting every movie on that ballot to be one the voter really likes. Which is how I often look at the S&S poll. Every movie on the list is a movie some critic feels strongly about (and as stated earlier in the thread, they tend to have some selectivity of the critics who get to vote). The higher up it is, the more critics feel strongly about it. Try to resist the urge of "the x-th best movie," even though the BFI isn't guilty of pushing that mentality themselves with the number 1 spot. One obvious downside of 10 spots is, a lot of "nearly the best ever movies" and the type of movies that are more prone to land in that category get excluded from the list, and it causes to a circling around individual movies becoming representatives of a lot more than themselves. Also, if you look at it as a poll, with the higher up on it meaning... something, though one might be entirely sure what, the further down you get, the more the smaller sample size of votes (limited number of voters all only being able to put in a small number of votes), causes a lot of erratic positioning.

Upside, there's probably fewer votes for movies just because, "they need to be there."



Finally got around to watching Jeanne Dielman, and it was amazing to watch. Watched it with a friend so we both were actively engaged in discussing the scenes and her actions throughout the film, which were subtle but worth noting.

Great film. Now, is it the #1 film? Probably not. Wouldn’t be mine, but I can see why it might be for someone. It’s not likely to leave my mind anytime soon, and reminded me of how I felt after watching Daisies and Stalker. Or the more recent watch of 8 1/2.
You were discussing throughout the film? Or afterwards you actively engaged in discussing the scenes and her actions throughout the film?

It reads like the former, and I'm a little surprised, because Jeanne Dielman seems like a movie that you need to get on its tempo, and I would imagine talking about the movie while it's playing would take you out of that tempo.

Admittedly, I say this as someone who watched it twice this past decade and didn't get on its tempo either time (maybe like 2001 as a teenager, I just need to rewatch it another 6-10 times. Hey, decades later, 2001 is my personal best movie of all time and has been for a while). So, I guess whatever works. But I do find it surprising.



But are there any moral implications towards thinking Gladiator isn't a good movie? Or in thinking Gladiator sticks out like a sore thumb amongst all the other films Stu listed as his five star films.

If I was disappointed in Stu loving Gladiator (which I'm not), at worst he's going to come away believing I think a movie he likes is acid bath worthy (which I do). And maybe that hurts his feelings (but it hopefully doesn't as I have a long track record of taking the piss out of everything, which he has been able to observe get uniformly applied to pretty much everybody over the course of 15 years). But it doesn't imply that he is somehow aiding in the exclusion of female or minority representation in film. One of these things is considerably worse than the other. Especially considering, in the case of Hertzfeld, it seems as if it is something he likely was already wrestling with when he made his list (which he was not being given the benefit of having done by this woman's disappointment).

Now maybe this particular disappointed person already has a long relationship speaking with Hertzfeld through this format. Maybe they've had these discussions before. Maybe she has an established reason to be disappointed. If that was the case, I would retract my irritation. But if she just popped out of the ether to let him know that he let her down...because of a list of his favorite films...I think it's pretty fair to call her a pest, even if she hardly rises to the status of fatal irritant that so many on twitter (on both sides of the political spectrum) frequently do.

I've been 'disappointed' in the actions or tastes or beliefs of my favorite artists in the past as well. And what I do is give a little frown, or maybe discuss it with my friends that I expected more. At no point have I ever thought 'maybe I should confront them with this disappointment. Why weren't they considering what I thought when they made a list of their favorite films'.

The whole think strikes me as absurd. And I think that it is only because of how toxic these things can actually be that it becomes easy to overlook these smaller infractions, where we think our feelings and beliefs need to extend to everyone else because we have access to everybody these days. But it's just an unhealthy thing, whether it be for the offended or the offendee. And, as said, while much of my problem really has to do with Twitter culture in general, maybe its simply one of those things where I'm just out of touch. But, if so, it would also be the rare exception where I'm feeling pretty comfortable being old.
I feel like you have argued moral implications of it in the past.
Like I said, I'm not on Twitter, but I am under the impression that that is common twitter culture. That isn't to say, everything Twitter culture is how things should be. I do think such interactions do stem from Twitter making such access so easy, and it is probably an issue (even the non-confrontational, just wanting/expecting/hoping for attention).



I feel like you have argued moral implications of it in the past.
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It's almost like I only have two settings. What is art? What is moral? Then immediately fall asleep if the conversation drifts away from either premise