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@ynwtf 's post has me curious...about woodwinds, but actually brass. In a trumpet for instance....3 valves. Is it true that breath pressure...and....lips shape helps get those notes out the way you want them?

I have theory personally...but I have to know...can I find those notes I seek by just "blowing" with the right intention...like whistling? With whistling you kind of wing it. 3 valves are not a lot of valves....not tons and tons of combinations....and the whole tuning thing...does that require good oil and keeping the spit valves clean?

With a trombone, I'd imagine it's like a theramin...very measured movements in veryu, very small intervals...very close movements...no long strides as you see in the movies, or episodes of Columbo, or at marching band parades......



matt72582's Avatar
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Ha! Great stuff, thank you for sharing.

My uncle maybe 10 years my senior played drums in his high school marching band.He had a kit the same blue as yours that he played in church and at his house when he moved out. Always was an inspiration and that was my initial drive to learn something musical.

Beginner band started for us in 5th grade, so the director called an assembly each year to demonstrate for any kid that wanted to join up. I told him I wanted to play drums like my uncle! I was a small kid btw. So he leaned down, placed his arm around my should and whispered, "In two years when you join the marching band, you're gonna be carrying that thing around..." and pointed to the largest of four marching bass drums. "You sure you want to do that?"

I picked saxophone.

I did pick up a kit and took some lessons around college but always wondered what I would have done had a stuck with it for fundamentals. Now I'm too uncoordinated and self conscious to play enough to get it back up.

4th CD, huh? Cool and grats!
Very cool; especially interesting on how things got started, etc... I remember as a little kid using pens, and drumming them onto a Fisher Price stethoscope. I worked all summer when I was 14 to get that set, which I still have 22 years later, but the problem with drums is that I couldn't play them during my travels, and always had to rely on someone else'.


You never know - you could play again, or something else? It's good exercise for the body and the brain - having to execute correctly, memorization, coordination. As well as any enjoyment from coming up with something, or playing along with something you like.



I'm a musician. I started on drums at 11, and moved on to piano, guitar, bass, etc., using random footage from traveling to be able to upload.





a song from my 4th CD





Drumming in San Francisco, CA
Matt, I really dig you raw style. You definitely throw caution to the wind, and I can tell you have Bonzo in your heart. I hear it, and I be lovin' dat shlt yo.

If a producer recorded you on the drums and some piano...just to glue it better fidelity-wise, it'd be righteous..also, I like when you add melodies on top..you did so with "sick in Athens"...but you only went there for a qwik second. More of that, please next time



That elusive hide-and-seek cow is at it again
@ynwtf 's post has me curious...about woodwinds, but actually brass. In a trumpet for instance....3 valves. Is it true that breath pressure...and....lips shape helps get those notes out the way you want them?

I have theory personally...but I have to know...can I find those notes I seek by just "blowing" with the right intention...like whistling? With whistling you kind of wing it. 3 valves are not a lot of valves....not tons and tons of combinations....and the whole tuning thing...does that require good oil and keeping the spit valves clean?

With a trombone, I'd imagine it's like a theramin...very measured movements in veryu, very small intervals...very close movements...no long strides as you see in the movies, or episodes of Columbo, or at marching band parades......
So how you set your mouth (embouchure) totally affects the pitch of the instrument. Like playing taps on a bugle? No valve. No slide. All the notes come from how tight or loose you set your lips. Like you described whistling, how changing the pitch by creating more or less space in your mouth or the position of your lips, it's kind of the same concept. For brass you create the buzz in your lips. Adjusting the tightness gives you higher or lower tones. Thing is, like with the bugle, the instrument body only has a set length for sound waves to travel. So in that case you can only really create harmonic intervals just by the mouth alone.

I played sax, so it's a bit different. With a wooden reed creating the initial vibration I can clinch or looses my grip on the mouthpiece to force harmonic tones, but the real control is the manipulating the openings along the body of the sax, shortening or lengthening the body. Like a slide whistle sort of. Minor tuning adjustments are made by shortening or extending a dedicated valve in brass, or with woodwinds, by moving the mouthpiece slightly in or out of the neck. You could probably adjust +/- half a step with that alone.

Vibrato works of the mouth too. Pinch and relax the lips and breath.

Ok, I'm rambling.

Yes, you can control it with the mouth only. Just you're pretty limited in the tones that you can produce. A trumpet only has 3 valves, but each combination of valve opening or shutting all change the length of the trumpet's body by adding a half inch or 2-3 inches. That in combination with lip control give the rest of the tones that a bugle cannot produce.

Trombones are a whole other beast and as I may have understated in an earlier post, borderline on witchcraft to me. lol. So you're on your own there
__________________
"My Dionne Warwick understanding of your dream indicates that you are ambivalent on how you want life to eventually screw you." - Joel

"Ever try to forcibly pin down a house cat? It's not easy." - Captain Steel

"I just can't get pass sticking a finger up a dog's butt." - John Dumbear



That elusive hide-and-seek cow is at it again
GUYS I GOT MY 2 CHANNEL WORKING TONIGHT.








no clue what I'm going to do with it.
say wut?
is that like half a 4chan?

>=P



So for brass, and maybe woodwinds, too ...mouth shape, breath pressure, and hitting different combos of valves/holes will eventually produce results you seek...but time must not be an issue. If you want the notes, pitch, vibrato, etc...you have to find it ...I'll tell you one thing...paying some odd dollars an hour or even ever 30 mins to an instructor at some run down local stink shop isn't my idea of a good time so....when time permits...it's back to figuring it all out myself, and maybe that's the ticket, or maybe it's just thinking big, but whatever it is ....shut up Joel..and that's something that is not debatable!



That elusive hide-and-seek cow is at it again
So for brass, and maybe woodwinds, too ...mouth shape, breath pressure, and hitting different combos of valves/holes will eventually produce results you seek...but time must not be an issue. If you want the notes, pitch, vibrato, etc...you have to find it ...I'll tell you one thing...paying some odd dollars an hour or even ever 30 mins to an instructor at some run down local stink shop isn't my idea of a good time so....when time permits...it's back to figuring it all out myself, and maybe that's the ticket, or maybe it's just thinking big, but whatever it is ....shut up Joel..and that's something that is not debatable!
Trumpets, flutes, clarinets, and sometimes a decent sax are always lining the walls at pawn shops! Find one cheap, have a buddy handle it to make sure it's not broken, and offer half of what they're asking. Good way to get a foot in is just to test it out. Or just buy a cheap plastic recorder off amazon. Works just like a clarinet mostly and is much easier to figure the mouth part out as it's all plastic. Feel that out then you'd have more practical experience jumping to a sax or whatever.

To me, patterns are patterns. Typing on a keyboard, dinging a piano, or pressing keys on a sax, they're all related in a way. I mean to say that once you realize the pattern of it, that part never changes. Forever. I would think the hard part for most would be the mouth control. That would be difficult to figure out alone without some guidance to see the right way, then learn to mimic it. Like playing a sax? You literally roll the fatty tissue of your bottom lip over your bottom teeth. New players a lot of times just try to bite the reed and it sounds like they're killing geese during sex. I mean killing a goose while it is in the act of having sex. Please don't try to make it with a goose.

I think with brass, you can't really do much unless you get the buzz right. Trial and error will eventually clue you in. Would still help to have a nudge from a friend though, to get started. Not sure you would need a formal instructor. You could just go to your local music store and buy a beginner band instrument book for whatever. Most of those have entire sections dedicated to initial mouth position and guidance. At least for as much as it can be translated into text. Same with all the individual note fingering combinations. As an adult, especially one already into music and sound, picking that up and running with it wouldn't be a problem. With or without someone coaching. But then there's youtube now, so....

Woodwinds all work pretty much the same way too. I mean, a finger pattern for one is pretty close to another. Learning clarinet is an easy jump to flute or sax. Learning trumpet is an easier jump to other valve brass. Kinda like learning guitar you're pretty much good for bass too.



Thank you so much @ynwtf, that was helpful and encouraging!

The past few weekends I've been taking in some John Helliwell from Supertramp..what a space that band left him in the middle of all of those great songs,...to just play some tasteful melodies and solos. He's not the only one I've been clinging to...throughout years..it's always been a curiosity, but....yeah..brass is probably my bag for right now, and your text tutelage has inspired me to just try and get on with it...lots of bad sounds to make before I land a nice solo section in a song



That elusive hide-and-seek cow is at it again
Thank you so much @ynwtf, that was helpful and encouraging!

The past few weekends I've been taking in some John Helliwell from Supertramp..what a space that band left him in the middle of all of those great songs,...to just play some tasteful melodies and solos. He's not the only one I've been clinging to...throughout years..it's always been a curiosity, but....yeah..brass is probably my bag for right now, and your text tutelage has inspired me to just try and get on with it...lots of bad sounds to make before I land a nice solo section in a song
Trumpet fingering chart:
http://www.monsteroil.net/product_im...rt-for-web.jpg

Start top left to right. notice a pattern? The fingering repeats every 8 notes. So really, there's only like 7 total fingering combos to worry about. Each section you just tighten the lip buzz to step up, while using the same finger patterns as before.



That elusive hide-and-seek cow is at it again
Or you can ignore the valves and still treat it like a bugle for taps and vibrato. Actually good practice that, too.



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Matt, I really dig you raw style. You definitely throw caution to the wind, and I can tell you have Bonzo in your heart. I hear it, and I be lovin' dat shlt yo.

If a producer recorded you on the drums and some piano...just to glue it better fidelity-wise, it'd be righteous..also, I like when you add melodies on top..you did so with "sick in Athens"...but you only went there for a qwik second. More of that, please next time
Thanks Joel, I appreciate the kind words, I especially liked listening to your harmony (with the reverb, kinda in the background). Vibrato, falsetto always gets me, too.

It's funny, I was thinking about you a few weeks ago. I was on my Tascam, knowing I had too much material than I had space for, and remembered talking about music, and I purposely burnt a CD-RW with only the drum track. I thought of PMing you, but if someone else wants to add something - great... I decided not to set up a website selling beats after all the things I've heard, as well as my banking issues. It takes quite long to make a YouTube video, but I see everyone is using soundcloud to upload stuff, but if you all know something better, let me know.. I can't seem to find that (I have too many files entitled SONGxxx), but I did find something I was working on that has a tiny bit of acoustic.. I'll leave it there (my laptop is almost kaput) and come back after restarting.


P.S. - Supertramp is SO awesome.. I recommend anyone to check out their non-hits especially!



Thanks Joel, I appreciate the kind words, I especially liked listening to your harmony (with the reverb, kinda in the background). Vibrato, falsetto always gets me, too.

It's funny, I was thinking about you a few weeks ago. I was on my Tascam, knowing I had too much material than I had space for, and remembered talking about music, and I purposely burnt a CD-RW with only the drum track. I thought of PMing you, but if someone else wants to add something - great... I decided not to set up a website selling beats after all the things I've heard, as well as my banking issues. It takes quite long to make a YouTube video, but I see everyone is using soundcloud to upload stuff, but if you all know something better, let me know.. I can't seem to find that (I have too many files entitled SONGxxx), but I did find something I was working on that has a tiny bit of acoustic.. I'll leave it there (my laptop is almost kaput) and come back after restarting.


P.S. - Supertramp is SO awesome.. I recommend anyone to check out their non-hits especially!
Matt, I'm broke as a joke as much as I'd like to pay for royalty tracks. I do like your playing a lot...so..if you ever wanna send me a track, just to see what happens...please feel free...if you have a gmail acct, you can safely send one without breaking the upload limit..you just hit the paperclip icon and upload the track from your desktop to the email...my email is [email protected]

send away..I think it could be something marvelous, or at the least, something goofy and worth listening to...my trick would be to let your drums breathe, rather than smother them with a shltload of overdubs.



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https://soundcloud.com/user-38640231...africa/s-veRIw
If anyone uses it, I'd love to hear what you added, and by all means, feel free to share it on this thread.



Here's something I made a week ago or so - I like taking a movie I like, mixing it in, and just seeing how it turns out






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Rudy is one of my faves, as well as From Now On. @matt72582
Rudy is one of my favorites, too.. I love "From Now On" although I think the end drags too bit, "guess I'll always have to be (guess i'll always have to be)" I also love
-Crime of the Century
-Words Unspoken
-School
-Just a Normal Day
-Don't Leave Me Now
-Another Man's Woman
-Breakfast in America
-Fool's Overture
-Know Who You Are
-The Meaning
-The Logical Song and many more



Rudy is one of my favorites, too.. I love "From Now On" although I think the end drags too bit, "guess I'll always have to be (guess i'll always have to be)" I also love
-Crime of the Century
-Words Unspoken
-School
-Just a Normal Day
-Don't Leave Me Now
-Another Man's Woman
-Breakfast in America
-Fool's Overture
-Know Who You Are
-The Meaning
-The Logical Song and many more
The whole Hodgson/Davies battle is heartbreaking. Davies is dying of cancer, and Hodgson is toting himself as the "voice of Supertramp". It sucks bad.

I personally lean more towards Davies compositions like Rudy, Crime of the Century, From Now On, Gone Hollywood ...I like Roger Hodgson, too..but his stuff, to me, anyway, is kind of like saccharine compared to the sweet and sour blend that Davies puts out ...just like The Beatles. I mean, almost exactly, except not as renowned.



matt72582's Avatar
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The whole Hodgson/Davies battle is heartbreaking. Davies is dying of cancer, and Hodgson is toting himself as the "voice of Supertramp". It sucks bad.

I personally lean more towards Davies compositions like Rudy, Crime of the Century, From Now On, Gone Hollywood ...I like Roger Hodgson, too..but his stuff, to me, anyway, is kind of like saccharine compared to the sweet and sour blend that Davies puts out ...just like The Beatles. I mean, almost exactly, except not as renowned.
Yes, it's very sad. Rick is one of my favorite piano players ever. Supertramp is my 2nd favorite band, I still remember when I first listened to them when I was 15... John's solo on "Breakfast in America" was so beautiful (The Meaning, too) I love the dramatic music he made, but after Hodgson left, the only tracks that got to me were the title-track of BWYB, and "Better Days" (despite the production, which both were guilty of)...
Outside of Waters/Gilmour, I think they were the most complementary. I saw Hodgson 3x, one of my favorite shows. If I took my favorites, I notice them pretty even divided, but overall, I might say Roger had a few less duds. I would have loved to see what Roger Waters would do - write a song and give it to David to sing, or whoever it fit best...
Speaking of my favorite bands, I noticed there were some trivial similarities.
-Both Rogers wrote most of the hits.
-Both Ricks played piano.
-Both Rogers didn't get along with Rick
-Their last albums together were released 5 months apart (83,84)
-Their last albums had similar finale titles (The Final Cut, Famous Last Words)


As for their feud, they had different musical tastes (which was interesting for me) and different philosophies. He gave Rick the name (and it was Sam who gave Rick the million to start) on a handshake agreement that they'd each play their own songs, which Rick honored until they went to South America. I heard both sides saying they bent over backwards on the 40-yr reunion tour... Maybe we'll hear demos with the possible upcoming anniversaries - "Breakfast in America", etc